Stephen Jones (Whitlam, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Hansard source

I'll start by thanking all honourable members for their participation in this debate. Everyone's joined the debate with great passion and, I think, a genuineness, and I commend them for that. There wouldn't be a member of this place or the other place who hasn't had direct representation from their constituents on the scourge of scams, so I believe everybody is coming to this issue with a genuineness about wanting to fix the problem.

Through the debate we've heard stories of the unimaginable harm that scams have caused too many Australians. I have no doubt that these are the results of members reflecting in good faith on the issues that have been raised with them in their electorates. It's a big problem. If we don't get it right, people won't have faith in the rails of modern commerce. Whether we care about it because of the social consequences or because it has devastating economic consequences, we need to act on this. We need to act on this as a parliament and we need to act on it quickly. At $7 million a day, we can't go into recess without this issue having been dealt with, because the consequence is that $7 million a day is going to be lost and the failure of us to act to put this preventative legislation into action will be on all our heads.

When we came into government in late 2022, Australians were losing $3 billion a year. It had been doubling every year. It had been doubling every year because the approach up till then was that this was a private problem that was the responsibility of individual consumers and individual Australians to meet. We don't say that there isn't a role for individuals to deal with this challenge, but it's actually a government problem. It's a problem of business. It's a problem of consumers. It's a problem that we have to work on right across the economy and right across government, and that's what we're doing through this legislation here today.

It's not the first step; it won't be the last. As the member for Lalor has already said in her contribution, the government has stood up the National Anti-Scam Centre to be the focus of coordination and education activities for the government, including those foreshadowed in this bill. We have provided the Australian Securities and Investment Commission with the funding and the capacity to go after the fake investment websites. We're working with the ACCC to enable them to do the same thing inside their jurisdiction, and thousands and thousands of fake websites are being taken down as a result of this. We've been working with the private sector to ensure that, on a voluntary basis, ahead of legislation that we're introducing, new voluntary accords and codes are introduced. There will be a significant uplift as a result of this legislation.

We've all heard through the debate lots of stories. In the last few days, I've heard reports of manipulated video footage of prominent Australians, including the Prime Minister. I'll be surprised if the Leader of the Opposition hasn't had the same. Manipulated video footage is being used to promote fraudulent schemes online via advertisements on social media platforms. These cases have been picked up by the National Anti-Scam Centre and reported to Meta, but I understand that many of these ads are still visible on platforms. This goes to the very heart of why our approach is different to that which has been taken in other countries. In other countries, they've just said: 'Let's go for the banks. We'll make them compulsorily liable for any losses.' That's akin to saying: 'We don't care how the scam reached the victim. In fact, we're not that interested in prevention. All we want to do is deal with something after the fact.' We take a different view. We want compensation, absolutely, but we want prevention to be the first line of defence.

Why are we so focused on social media platforms? Telcos are already introducing message filtering and message blocking. Around a million calls and messages are being blocked a day. More needs to be done. Banks have got voluntary stuff going on. We welcome that. Social media platforms are late to the party but they're slow to be implementing some things. Any member could pick up their phone while they're in the chamber, go to their Facebook app and type in the words 'sell my Australian bank account'. And they'll come up with screens and screens and screens of Facebook sites advising them how to sell or rent their Australian bank account. It's illegal to do. Why is it being done? Because that's how the scammers get the money out of a victim's bank account and then out of the country. They transfer it into a mule account, and that mule account is then used to remove the money beyond the reach of law or recovery and out of the country. Before standing up today, I've done exactly that. I've typed in the words 'sell my Australian bank account'. The first result on my Facebook account is an account that has had eight new posts today, with 10,000 members in total. All of this is illegal, and it's known to the operators of the site. Time and time and time again, they've been told, 'You are a key vector of this criminal activity, and you are not doing enough to stop it.'

This law addresses the problem. It imposes tough new obligations on banks, telecommunications companies and social media companies, all working together. It has tough new standards to prevent, detect and disrupt scams and ensure that they are keeping their customers safe from the criminals that are preying upon Australians. We have looked at other options that are available around the world. Frankly, there is no country in the world that has got this nailed, and there will be no country that has a tougher regime in place than Australia once this law passes through the parliament. This is something that every member of this place and the other place can be proud of, and it's something that we absolutely have to do.

I have heard through the course of the debate members saying that, under the current arrangements, reimbursement of scam losses is woefully inadequate and low. I agree. You know why? The problem is that there is no current standard against which a bank, a telco or a social media company is held accountable to, so our regulators are flying blind. Our courts and law enforcement are flying blind. They have no standard against which to hold one of these businesses accountable and say, 'You have breached this, and therefore you are liable to compensate and make good your customers.' As a result of these laws, that will change. The principal obligations will have fines and penalties attached to them of up to $50 million. Consumer redress will absolutely be part of it.

I've listened to consumer groups and members of the crossbench and others on this. I've listened to the members of the coalition. I've read carefully the comments that they've made in the Senate inquiry on this. I make the offer to the shadow minister, who is in the chamber, to have good-faith discussions with you to ensure that any legitimate issues can be dealt with. We need this bill passed. Every day, $7 million is lost. Nobody wants that hanging over their head. Over the months ahead, Australians will not thank any of us for it.

Lots of things have been said in the course of this debate, and, as is often the case in this place, sometimes people are partially informed—I'm sure they speak in good faith, but they are sometimes partially informed. Because I'm promising to get this bill through the House, I don't intend to address all of the statements that have been made, but what I can tell members of this place with great confidence is that the measures that we have put in place are already working and that the voluntary measures that some institutions have already put in place are making a difference but that much more needs to be done.

I use the figure of $3 billion, which was being lost each year before we came into government. I'm in a happy position to report to members that that number has reduced by 33 per cent over the last year because of the actions that have been put in place by this government. Whilst we could all give ourselves a pat on the back and say a 33 per cent reduction off $3 billion is a great achievement—and it is; we're one of the only countries in the world that can make that claim—when Australians are losing billions of dollars a year, we cannot rest on our laurels. We have to do the things that are anticipated within this bill to improve our protections and we will.

As the member for Lalor and others have said, it won't be the last word on this. I'm sure, as new vectors, new threats and new challenges arise, there will be new propositions that come before this parliament or before a government to ensure that we can continue to lift our standards. But make no mistake: the introduction of these laws will be a significant uplift across the entire economy and will make Australia the toughest country in the world for those criminal gangs to make a dollar in.

I note that there are members from the Treasury team who have been working on this over the last year and a half who are in the chamber today. I want to thank them for their tireless work on this. They are fine public servants who have been thrown an important public policy challenge and they've risen to it. I thank them for their work and I thank all members of the House for their participation in the debate. I commend the bill to the House.

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