Bob Baldwin (Paterson, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Defence Science and Personnel) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question without notice is to the Prime Minister. Prime Minister, I draw your attention to the front page of the Canberra Times, to an article titled ‘SAS troops face expulsion for speaking out over pay’. Can the Prime Minister explain why serving members of the SAS special forces continue to receive debt notices of up to $50,000 for their overseas service and continue to have their wages reduced, despite the guarantee by your Minister for Defence to this House four months ago that this problem would be fixed? Is this any way to treat our troops?

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The question has been asked. I assume the questioners would like an answer.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would welcome the question if I thought it was a genuine attempt to seek information and/or—

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The Minister for Defence will respond to the question.

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat.

Christopher Pyne (Sturt, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Education, Apprenticeships and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, I raise a point of order. The standing orders do not allow a member to impute improper motives to another member of the House of Representatives. The member has asked a very serious question about our troops, and the minister has impugned his motives. I ask that he withdraw the same.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! I think—

Christopher Pyne (Sturt, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Education, Apprenticeships and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Standing order 90.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Sturt! I am pleased that the member for Sturt has been industrious over the weekend. The minister has used three or four words. To the member for Sturt I indicate that I will listen carefully to where the minister is going.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Of course, the shadow minister for defence is getting regular briefings from the Department of Defence on this issue, and he will be receiving another briefing tomorrow.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his place. The member for Paterson, with a point of order.

Bob Baldwin (Paterson, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Defence Science and Personnel) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, the minister has just said we have received regular briefings on this issue. Can I say to you, Mr Speaker: we have not received one.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! There is no point of order. The member knows, as I indicated to the member for Dickson, that the invite to come to the dispatch box for a point of order is not to engage in debate. I have indicated to the House that I have great worries about question time being used for debate. As yet, the House has not devised a mechanism where the House will investigate this problem, but certainly this illustrates the problem. But people’s frustration should not be vented by coming to the dispatch box in the guise of a point of order and then entering into debate. If what the minister has said needs response, there are other forms of the House which the member for Paterson knows full well he could use at the end of question time.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Like, I am sure, every member of this House, I was distressed last year when I heard that our special forces soldiers were possibly—

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, there have been briefings. I can guarantee to the House that there have been briefings.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister will respond to the question. The interjectors will cease interjecting.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will leave it for the member for Paterson to explain himself, but there have been briefings, Mr Speaker. He should consult his shadow minister for defence. Again, we are all collectively distressed at the thought that our special forces soldiers could be incorrectly having moneys deducted from their pay. When I heard of this matter, I told the House—

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! It is being answered.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

that it will be fixed, and it will be fixed.

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat. I call the minister.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Unfortunately, the matter is very complex. I am sure there is not one member of this House who would suggest that I or any member of this House would delay in any way the process of fixing this problem. While this problem has its genesis—

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat. I am sorry to do this to the minister, but we will wait until the House comes to order.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

While this problem has its genesis in a decision of the independent Defence review tribunal, the real cause is the system we inherited from the former government. Of course, the decision of the tribunal required implementation. The reality is that the ICT and other systems have not been able to deliver. That is the fact of it.

Nola Marino (Forrest, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Ms Marino interjecting

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Forrest is warned!

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Fixing that is taking some time and no-one is more frustrated than I am.

Greg Hunt (Flinders, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Climate Change, Environment and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Hunt interjecting

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat.

Greg Hunt (Flinders, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Climate Change, Environment and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The computer says no!

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Flinders will leave the chamber for one hour.

The member for Flinders then left the chamber.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, that is right: the computer says no—the computer system we inherited from you. The fact is that underinvestment in ICT in Defence is causing problems right throughout the Defence organisation.

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

They said this is not about politics but it seems, by their intervention, that that is exactly what this is about. Again, every member of this House, I am sure, wants to fix this problem as quickly as is possible.

Nola Marino (Forrest, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You gave a guarantee.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I did give a guarantee and I will fix this problem.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Forrest will leave the chamber for one hour.

The member for Forrest then left the chamber.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Chief of Army has personally taken responsibility for and dedicated himself to—because it is not, in the first instance, a special forces organisation problem—fixing this problem. Yes, I have been critical publicly about delays and the inability to fix this problem more quickly, but if only it were so easy.

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is not straightforward; do not be silly.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will ignore the interjections.

Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is a suggestion that I somehow signed a backdated provision, which is just ridiculous. The tribunal makes its decisions on a regular basis retrospectively. It is required under the act not to make any retrospective decision that could disadvantage a member of the Australian Defence Force. In this case, there should not have been any disadvantage, because what the tribunal had suggested or directed is that allowances be merged with salary, which would have been and should have been of advantage to the soldiers. But, when the computer systems tried to merge the allowances with the salaries, there was an inability to recognise the competencies which are required to secure those allowances. In some cases it was because the competencies were gained or earned informally and sometimes it was because the competencies were just not accepted by the computer system.

Some time ago I suggested that a non-reduction period should be established acting both retrospectively and prospectively to ensure that there are no debts and that soldiers have time to gain the competencies required, to establish them formally. The most recent advice the Chief of Army has is that he now has the power to give more formal recognition to competencies which were formerly considered to be informal. So these are very complex issues. They are issues that we have inherited because of underinvestment in these systems over many years. I said I would fix this problem. The Chief of Army is acting in good faith to fix it as quickly as possible. In the meantime we have put provisions in place to ensure no Defence member is financially disadvantaged.