Craig Thomson (Dobell, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Treasurer. What has the government and the Australian community achieved in 2009 that will help us meet the economic challenges of 2010 and beyond?

Wayne Swan (Lilley, Australian Labor Party, Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the member for Dobell for his question because, as the parliamentary year draws to a close, I think it is worth reflecting on the impact of the global financial crisis on our economy and also on the challenges that lie ahead in the next year or so. It is the case that share markets around the world suffered their biggest decline since the 1927 stock market collapse. It is also the case that we have suffered the sharpest contraction in the global economy since the Great Depression. Something like 12 million workers in advanced economies have lost their jobs and every major advanced economy has fallen into deep recession. Australia was in danger of following suit.

As we are aware, the very prompt and decisive action by the government, the Reserve Bank and the resilience in the Australian community did help Australia withstand the full impact of this global recession. As the IMF said only a few weeks ago:

An aggressive policy response is likely to help Australia escape a contraction in 2009.

I think all Australians can be proud of what we have all achieved together—employers and employees—to cushion the impact on our economy by pulling together and working together at this difficult time. Because we have done that, we have come through in a stronger position than any other advanced economy. This is what the OECD confirmed last week in their report:

Australia has stronger growth, lower unemployment, lower debt and lower deficits than other advanced economies.

The government’s stimulus has meant that we did avoid recession and, in doing that, the destruction on capital, the destruction of skills and the destruction on communities. Of course, there are very substantial challenges that remain. We are under no illusions about that. The government are fairly and squarely focused on the challenges that lie ahead through next year.

The IMF has already indicated that the global recovery is uneven, that it is not yet self-sustaining and that it remains dependent on policy support. As we showed in MYEFO there is still spare capacity. The economy is expected to operate below capacity for some time and unemployment is still expected to rise. We are still feeling the effects on our terms of trade and, of course, on business investment. We can see that today in the capex data. It shows that capital expenditure by businesses fell by 3.9 per cent in the September quarter. While investment plans for 2009-10 have improved somewhat, they remain 7.7 per cent lower than the same estimate for 2008-09. The importance of that is that the government’s investment and infrastructure does remain very important in terms of supporting business and employment in the year ahead. I think it underscores the importance of the economic stimulus.

We are in a better position than we expected earlier in the year. That is a good thing. And we do know that we are better placed than many other economies to meet the challenges ahead. That is why the government are moving to put in place reforms like the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme. That is why we are working hard on our productivity agenda and why we are serious about reforming the tax system. The country has some hard yards ahead. Reform is never easy. We have seen that in the House with the reaction by some to the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme. What we do know is that there will be difficult reforms ahead. The important thing is that this government have the commitment to put those in place and, in doing that, we do need maximum unity in this parliament. All sides of the House need to work together so that we can maximise the opportunities for the future to make ourselves more prosperous, to support employment and to support business. That is why the government are so focused on our reform program as we go through the year and into the years ahead.

Joe Hockey (North Sydney, Liberal Party, Shadow Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Treasurer, and I refer to rising interest rates. I ask the Treasurer a simple question: will the Treasurer inform the House how much interest the government will have to pay on its record debt until that debt is paid off in 2022?

Wayne Swan (Lilley, Australian Labor Party, Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I welcome this question, because one month ago this Monday I presented MYEFO—an update of the budget forecast, the economic outlook and the budget outlook. I have not had a question from the shadow Treasurer about that in one month. Admittedly, he was away for a period of time. The family had a young baby. I understand that. But for him not to ask a question at any stage during this week about the MYEFO document, which forecasts stronger growth and lower net debt—some $50 billion lower net debt—or not to ask a question about those figures in one month just shows you what fundamental misjudgment the opposition has and how disorganised it is in its approach to economic policy or, for that matter, any other policy. It is very sloppy. It is definitely very sloppy. The opposition has been running this classic scare campaign about rising interest rates.

Joe Hockey (North Sydney, Liberal Party, Shadow Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The question could not have been more specific. How much interest will the government have to pay on its debt? How much?

Wayne Swan (Lilley, Australian Labor Party, Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The shadow Treasurer knows full well that all of the estimates are there in MYEFO, but I am happy to run him through them. Let us go through it: net interest payments for 2009-10 are around $2 billion or 0.2 per cent of GDP; net interest payments are projected to rise to $8.2 billion or 0.6 per cent of GDP by 2012-13. Those are the figures. They have been there in MYEFO for over a month. But the opposition have not been able to summon the political will to ask a question about them. Let me tell you why this question has taken so long: they are so acutely embarrassed by their opposition to our stimulus packages that they cannot come into the House—

Joe Hockey (North Sydney, Liberal Party, Shadow Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I did not ask him about questions. I asked him a simple question: how much interest is Australia going have to pay on your debt?

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Treasurer is responding to the question.

Wayne Swan (Lilley, Australian Labor Party, Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have run through the numbers, but I want to go through the economic outlook that lies behind the numbers. This government had to borrow responsibly to support small business and to support employment. What the Mid-Year Fiscal and Economic Outlook showed was this: as a result of the global recession, we have had to write down revenues by $170 billion. The course of action that we took in those circumstances was to borrow responsibly.

Christopher Pyne (Sturt, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Education, Apprenticeships and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker—

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is no point of order. The member for Sturt will resume his seat and the Treasurer will resume his seat. The Treasurer is responding to the question under the standing orders.

Peter Lindsay (Herbert, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, he isn’t.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Herbert will leave the chamber for one hour under standing order 94(a).

Peter Lindsay (Herbert, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, we’re not getting any answers to the questions we ask.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Herbert is named.

Christopher Pyne (Sturt, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Education, Apprenticeships and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the member for Herbert be suspended from the service of the House.

Mr Pyne interjecting

The member for Sturt is warned.

Question put.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The honourable member for Herbert is suspended from the service of the House for 24 hours under standing order 94(b).

The member for Herbert then left the chamber.

I now might be able to conclude my remarks. The House would remember I asked the Treasurer and the Manager of Opposition Business to resume their seats. If my recollection is right, I had simply made the comment that, based on previous practice of the House, the Treasurer’s response could have been considered to have been relevant. I then wished to make the further comment—and it could be considered by way of caution to the Treasurer—to indicate to the House that the real problem is the amount of debate that is allowed in the answers. As this has caused this longer break in proceedings, I will now read a couple of relevant sections from House of Representatives Practice, which the House might consider over the break. At page 552 it reads:

… Ministers have not been prevented from introducing argument into their answers. Although it has been argued that the standing order provision that ‘questions cannot be debated’ should be read as meaning a prohibition of debate in answering, as well as in putting, a question, it has not been so interpreted by the Chair.

On page 54 it indicates that a procedure committee in 1992, amongst other things, suggested that the standing orders be amended to read, amongst other things, ‘shall not debate the subject to which the question refers’—that is, the answer. I think that is part of the problem. That is why earlier I tried to be very cautious about the amount of argument we have allowed to creep into questions. In an unlevel playing field it seems a reasonable practice of the House to try to make it more level. It is why I attempt to reduce the amount of argument that is introduced into points of order. On this occasion I might add that the two points of order raised by the member for North Sydney—not that I adjudicated in his favour—were points of order.

Joe Hockey (North Sydney, Liberal Party, Shadow Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Further to your advice to the House, I would find it impossible to frame a question that was simpler or more direct than asking the Treasurer what the interest repayments were on government debt. It was a simple question. If the standing order relating to relevance has any worth then surely it goes to the point—

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for North Sydney might resume his seat. Perhaps he might find some time over the break to really reflect upon these matters. In a fair judgment of proceedings of this place over a long time—over a long time—he would be tested to find that things were as simple as he says by putting the words ‘a simple question’ in a question and not allowing the little bits and pieces of the question then to be picked out by ministers. I could also argue my response to points of order by saying that others who had it in their power to change standing orders over time, through dent of numbers, perhaps will consider that. I am not blaming anybody; I am blaming the House. If you think that I think that this is appropriate, you are wrong. I have tried to indicate a path that the House could consider. The Treasurer has the call.

Wayne Swan (Lilley, Australian Labor Party, Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I ran through the figures in MYEFO, but obviously the shadow Treasurer has not even read MYEFO. I ran through the figures and I explained why borrowings were necessary in the first place—that is, there have been revenue write-downs of something like $170 billion. Those revenue write-downs have necessitated borrowings, which has meant that the Commonwealth is paying interest. I then ran through the interest that we are paying on the net debt and he still did not seem to understand it or get it. I can only think that he has not read MYEFO. The truth is that, if we had not borrowed that money, if we were not paying that interest, Australia would be in a deep recession right now. That is the point. That is what those opposite are so embarrassed about. They are embarrassed about the fact that they opposed economic stimulus in this House. Economic stimulus has kept us out of recession. Economic stimulus has supported hundreds of thousands of jobs. Economic stimulus has supported small business. We are paying interest to achieve that very desirable outcome. Those opposite are so embarrassed by their opposition in the House that they simply cannot stand it.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Has the Treasurer concluded? Has the Treasurer concluded? Treasurer?

Joe Hockey (North Sydney, Liberal Party, Shadow Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Just bring Ken Henry in!

Anthony Albanese (Grayndler, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the House) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, that was an outrageous slur on the Secretary of the Treasury, which is now on the record.

Opposition Member:

An opposition member—He’s an ignorant Treasurer!

Government Member:

Don’t be so ridiculous!

Tony Smith (Casey, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, he is an idiot! Put that on the record, too.

Harry Jenkins (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Casey will withdraw.

Tony Smith (Casey, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I withdraw, Mr Speaker.