Amanda Rishworth (Kingston, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Health) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Today I rise to speak on the Education Services for Overseas Students Amendment (Streamlining Regulation) Bill 2015 and the Education Services for Overseas Students (Registration Charges) Amendment (Streamlining Regulation) Bill 2015.

I will state from the outset that Labor offers reserved support for this legislative package but does remain concerned with several of the specifics of the bills. Broadly, there are two aspects to the bill. One is to update the legislative arrangements to reflect the establishment of the national regulators for post-secondary education, which are TEQSA, regulating the higher education sector; and ASQA, regulating the VET sector. The second part is to roll back provisions legislated by Labor which provide protections for students against private providers taking their money and not delivering the education that students expect.

International education is critically important for Australia, both economically and socially. Each year, international education contributes about $15 billion to the Australian economy. We often hear a lot about our nation being built on mining and agriculture, so many people are surprised to learn that international education is our third biggest export overall. Others are also surprised to learn that it is our No. 1 export service industry. Clearly, international education is an essential contributor to our broader economy and one that we must constantly work hard to protect, secure and help grow. This can be done by ensuring that high-quality education offerings are available to international students and that a qualification from Australia is a globally recognised passport to opportunities around the world.

International education not only contributes significantly to our economy but also helps to build closer relationships with our neighbours. International students undertaking studies in Australia offer a wonderful opportunity for cultural exchange and the promotion of cooperation and collaboration in people-to-people contexts with countries around the world

The benefits of international education are significant and that is why we must continue to work hard to protect our reputation as a high-quality provider of educational services and protect international students from being exploited by a minority of unscrupulous operators. When it comes to international education, protecting and safeguarding quality is key to ensuring that Australia has a strong reputation abroad. We know students from overseas will only study in countries that can demonstrate the highest standards in quality, safety and the provision of educational services.

The Howard government had a lax and naive disregard for robust protections for our international education sector, and that did have an impact on confidence. Between 2008 and 2011, 54 educational providers to overseas students collapsed, impacting 13,000 students and triggering a major crisis in Australia's international education market—a market Australia relies on significantly. Of those 13,000 students affected by the collapse of the 54 providers, only 312 students received refunds from their educational institutions.

In government, Labor had to act swiftly to clean up the mess left by the former Howard government. In government, Labor established a range of protections and implemented a range of measures to protect the reputation of our international education provision and established national regulators for both higher and vocational education. We also added additional protections to prevent students from being left out of pocket, if a provider collapsed or folded.

Labor introduced a number of important protections to ensure confidence, including the Tuition Protection Service, a national insurance-type scheme which steps in when a provider collapses and either ensures that an affected student can access another course at another college or provides that student with a refund for training not delivered. In addition, there were a number of other reforms that Labor initiated, ensuring that integrity was restored to Australia's international education industry.

And it has been successful. Between July 2012 and December 2014, we have seen significantly fewer colleges closing, with only 12 colleges closing and only 1,332 students affected. That is a significant reduction from the 13,000 who were affected before these changes were implemented. In 2014, we saw a mere three colleges close. This indicates a substantial and successful reduction from the previous years in institutions not being able to provide the service that they had charged for.

While we know that the vast majority of providers do the right thing in delivering a high-quality experience to our international students, one bad apple can affect the whole industry's reputation. This does affect confidence in the sector, and I think the recent exposure of exploitation and sham contracting arrangements at Australia Post and 7-Eleven involving almost exclusively international students should raise some concern. If it is not regulated properly and if questionable operators are left unchecked, honest players in the market and honest, high-quality education operators will suffer.

With this in mind there is sufficient reason to be concerned that some elements of the legislation before the House will potentially have the impact of watering down protections for international students. In this regard, Labor does have further questions as to whether the proposed amendments to the Tuition Protection Service will increase risk for the international education industry as well as possibly placing students at risk. That is why it is this parliament's obligation to ensure that the policy settings are right and that the regulators are given the tools they need to properly protect students from exploitation, mismanagement and dishonest dealings by a few unscrupulous operators.

There are elements of the bill which Labor is absolutely prepared to support, including the streamlining of the Education Services for Overseas Students Act with the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Act and the National Vocational Education and Training Regulator Act. We are absolutely willing to support reducing unnecessary red tape, but what we do not want to see is the watering down of protections for our international students and, indeed, of those protections that would threaten international education, which is our big export industry.

We do maintain concerns with some elements of the package, as I have indicated. I do recognise that this package does have support from many parts of the education sector who do want to see this bill passed. However, on a matter of such importance, it does deserve careful consideration to ensure that the safeguards are put in place and that the changes that are made do not have unintended consequences. Labor will continue to scrutinise this bill as it makes its passage through both houses and does reserve its right to make amendments in the Senate if needed. I am informed that it has been sent to a Senate legislation committee that will report back in November.

The international reputation of Australia's universities and vocational education providers deserves nothing less. We do need to protect our international students and we do need to protect Australia's reputation as a high-quality provider when it comes to international education. This is important both for students and for our economy.

Jane Prentice (Ryan, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise to support the Education Services for Overseas Students Amendment (Streamlining Regulation) Bill 2015 and related bill. I do so because it reaffirms the coalition government's commitment to reducing red tape and making it easier for private enterprise to do business in Australia. The bill does this in several ways. It removes unnecessarily prescriptive reporting requirements for private education providers. It levels the playing field between public and private education institutions by equalising accounting requirements and it removes inefficiencies in regulatory agencies, revoking the accreditation of institutions that fail to follow the rules.

The bill is the culmination of an extensive consultation process with the international education sector. An exposure draft of this bill was made public and comment was sought from stakeholders. Those consulted included education peak bodies; individual institutions across the schools, vocational education and training, higher education and English language training sectors; international student representative bodies; state and territory agencies; the Overseas Students Ombudsman; the Department of Immigration and Border Protection; the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency, TEQSA; and the Australian Skills Quality Authority, ASQA, to name just a few. As a consequence, the final bill strikes an appropriate balance between greater freedom from red tape for the sector and improved compliance mechanisms for TEQSA and AQSA, the industry regulators.

For industry, it is estimated that this bill will deliver deregulatory savings of $75 million dollars per annum. The market for international education is a fiercely competitive one, so savings of this magnitude will be welcomed. It will provide a further boost to the industry that is already Australia's largest non-resource export earner, worth $18.1 billion dollars to the national economy.

It is important to emphasise here that the proposed changes do not in any way water down student protections or necessary quality controls. The industry understands that strong protections enhance the international reputation of Australian providers in a sector in which reputation is of fundamental importance. This bill merely retracts some unnecessary regulatory impositions contained in the former government's Education Services for Overseas Students Legislation Amendment (Tuition Protection Service and Other Measures) Act 2012, which contained amendments to the ESOS Act. It maximizes protections and quality for students while reducing unnecessary red tape.

I turn now to some of the key elements of this bill. The bill removes existing restrictions on institutions receiving more than 50 per cent of a student's tuition fees prior to the commencement of the course. Students will now be given the power to pay up-front if they choose to so. The bill also removes the requirement for private educational institutions to retain prepaid tuition fees in a designated account until the commencement of the course. This requirement limits the competitiveness of private providers relative to public sector institutions, which have faced no such restrictions. With this bill, the practice of requiring institutions to report a default by an international student within an unreasonably short period of time has been ended. Previous requirements acted as a barrier to students and institutions resolving payment issues prior to the formal reporting of a default.

The bill also makes a series of technical amendments that clarify and formalise the regulatory roles of TEQSA and AQSA. Importantly, compliance processes are further streamlined by allowing for an institution's accreditation or its registration to deliver courses to international students to be cancelled or suspended if the institution's registration under domestic frameworks is similarly cancelled or suspended. This avoids the duplication of a costly and time-consuming further review process.

More improvements to the integrity of compliance measures are introduced through clarification of arrangements for existing students when an institution's registration expires. The bill makes it clear that the institutions cannot recruit or enrol new students after their registration expires. This bill is an example of what can be achieved when a government listens to, consults and engages with stakeholders. It reduces the burden of red tape on industry, clarifies regulatory responsibilities and strengthens integrity measures.

It is vitally important that the competitiveness and integrity of Australia's international education sector is maintained. The sector is growing strongly and, with increasing demand from our neighbours in the Asia-Pacific region, has the potential to grow further in the years and decades to come. However, this growth is by no means guaranteed, and will depend on Australian institutions continuing to offer a quality product at a competitive price. This bill ensures that these ingredients for future growth are maintained and enhanced. I commend the former minister for laying the groundwork for this bill in the preceding years and months, and wish the new minister well in ensuring this bill's passage through both Houses. I commend the bill to the House.

Joanne Ryan (Lalor, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise today in support of the Education Services for Overseas Students (Streamlining Regulation) Bill and the Education Services for Overseas Students (Registration Charges) Amendment (Streamlining Regulation) Bill 2015, but I do so with some reservations.

These two bills seek to update the legislative arrangements to reflect the establishment of national regulators for post-secondary education. These include both the Tertiary Education Quality Standards Agency—TEQSA—which, as my colleague the member for Kingston pointed out, recently lost $31 million through funding cuts made by the Abbott-Turnbull government, and the Australian Standards Quality Authority—ASQA. Australia has one of the world's best university systems alongside other post-secondary education. It is something that we on this side of the House are very proud of. Students from overseas are keen to obtain their higher education in Australia because of this.

In international education, protecting the quality of the education provided is paramount to maintaining the high reputation Australia currently enjoys and, therefore, the industry. Why would overseas students go to study in countries that are unable demonstrate and deliver the highest standards in quality of education services? They would not. One would argue that is why Australia is so attractive to overseas students. We know that the Abbott and now Turnbull government's agenda is to deregulate post-secondary education. This is what these bills are aimed at achieving; however, there are risks associated with these bills. That is why Labor is determined to ensure that they do not weaken necessary and effective protections for students—necessary and effective protections that were put in place under Labor after it became apparent they were necessary. So in removing those protections now, we are going into a space that we know carries risk because we have lived that risk before and we have lived with the consequences of that risk. This is a major test for the new minister and the new Prime Minister. They have to assure this parliament that with the passage of this legislation there will be no weakening or removal of protections that protect overseas students from shady operators in the international sector. And we cannot be naive in this place. We know these shady operators exist; we have seen the evidence of them.

So why do these protections exist? Well it is for very good reasons, for lived reasons, for lived experience. Between 2008 and 2011, 54 colleges collapsed. Fifty-four international education providers in this country collapsed, having a huge effect on 13,000 students. Of those 13,000 students who were enrolled in those colleges that did not provide them with the quality education they had paid for, only 312 got refunds from their education institutions. That had an enormous effect on the reputation of this industry in Australia. It resulted in a major crisis in our international education industry as enrolments collapsed. And why did this happen? It happened because of naivety, because in the Howard years there was a naive and lax regulation. This was fixed by Labor when it came to government, as seems to be the tradition.

It was Labor who established national regulators for higher education and vocational education. This problem was fixed, and we are now at risk of seeing those measures wound back. It was Labor who added additional protections to prevent students from being left out-of-pocket if a provider collapsed. And it was Labor who established the Tuition Protection Service, a national scheme which steps in when a provider collapses and either ensures an affected student can access another course at another college or provides that student with a refund for training not delivered. This is critical. Without those securities in place, there may be an impact on the number of overseas students who do enrol in Australia because those assurances are insuring this industry for Australia. It is clear that the measures implemented were effective; we can see that in the data. We can see that between July 2012 and December 2014, only 12 collapses occurred, and the numbers were clearly diminished because of the regulatory regime that was put in place. And in 2014 we only had three collapses. So the industry has recovered its reputation, and we are here today talking about possibly taking away the things that have led to the recovery of this industry.

We know that in this industry there are always new challenges. Only recently it was exposed that international students were victims of exploitation and sham contracting arrangements at Australia Post and 7-Eleven. This leaves no doubt in the minds of the Australian public—and should leave no doubt in the minds of those opposite—that there are those who will want to make a quick dollar at the expense of others and that any weakening of the regulations or of surety for students will add a layer of risk.

We know that the vast majority of people operating in this space and in this industry are reputable providers. Reputation is a very valuable thing, and once lost it is very difficult to recover. We know that the majority of providers are dedicated to providing the best education they possibly can. But it is these providers who operate within the guidelines, providing quality education, who suffer when the charlatans prosper, who suffer when, for one reason or another, there are collapses that leave students out of pocket. This damages the reputation. It damages the industry for those who are operating reputably and offering high-quality education.

We in this parliament need to make sure that the legislation we pass will give the regulators all the requirements they need to properly protect students. We do not want the situation whereby Australia's reputation continues to be damaged because of deliberate abuse of the system by underhanded, deceitful operators. I must say that I certainly hope that the Liberal Party has learnt from its mistakes under the Howard government, although I am not so sure that they have. Last time they were in office we saw nothing but inaction in this space. Now they are keen to further deregulate. It is not enough that they are trying to deregulate our universities with their plan for $100,000 degrees. Now we have this piece of legislation showing deregulation under the name of a diminishing of red tape, which I find extraordinary. I find it extraordinary when we use red tape in place of—in this case—surety: to ensure that students are getting what they have paid for, putting in place for those students some protections that ultimately protect the industry itself. Similarly, we hear the suggestion that occupational health and safety is somehow red tape in the industry. This can be misleading—and in this case it certainly is.

So, we have concerns about elements of these bills. Given the importance of this matter, this legislation requires further consideration and scrutiny to ensure that there are not further unintended consequences, because at the end of the day both sides of this House want to ensure that student protections are not weakened or completely lost and that our higher education international student industry is not diminished. That is why we are pleased to see that the bill has been referred to a Senate Legislation Committee for the scrutiny it deserves. We will be playing close attention as it travels through the houses and will be looking to see whether amendments are required to ensure that all international students studying in this country are protected, no matter where they come from.

I will finish my comments by reminding the House that our international education industry is currently the third biggest industry in this country. Surely that means that it is deserving of a level of scrutiny and a level of surety that robust protections are in place for the industry, for the students and for our international reputation in this space. It is not just in economic terms that this industry is valuable. It is obviously valuable in face-to-face, people-to-people relationships with our international neighbours in our tertiary sector. It is incredibly important. We do not want to see protections watered down, and we are very wary of unintended consequences.

Matt Williams (Hindmarsh, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise today to speak about the Education Services for Overseas Students Amendment (Streamlining Regulation) Bill 2015. The amendments to the Education Services for Overseas Students Act 2000 reduce the regulatory burden on education institutions and enhance the quality and reputation of international education while maintaining protection for students. The bills propose significant deregulatory savings for educational institutions totalling $76 million each year across all sectors. The bills are the result of extensive consultations with international education stakeholders, who have worked closely with the government to develop these reforms and strongly support the changes. Working with industry to get the best outcome for the sector is what this government is all about.

The bills deliver on recommendations of the 2013 review of higher education regulation by reducing duplication across the Education Services for Overseas Students Act, the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Act 2011 and the National Vocational Education and Training Regulator Act 2011. The bills will streamline the current registration, monitoring and quality assurance processes for education institutions to create a more seamless system—again, a better system with less compliance, less regulation.

We must continue to find ways to improve the effectiveness of our university and tertiary education sector. I want to take this opportunity to commend some universities in my home state of South Australia for the work they are doing at improving the effectiveness of their operations. The University of Adelaide is one example of a new platform to accelerate innovation and commercialisation of their research findings. They recently launched Adelaide Commercial, which will license research applications, generate spin-out companies and manage intellectual property on behalf of the university. I know that the minister for science, sitting in the chamber today, would be most interested in what they are doing in that respect. It will increase the impact from the translation of research into commercial outcomes. That is what we want to see: more commercial outcomes out of our universities partnering with industry. And it will help drive economic development. This is something that the Vice-Chancellor of Adelaide University, Professor Warren Bebbington, is very focused on. As he says, it will mean more jobs for South Australians, which is very important as we are facing some challenging employment situations going forward.

The University of Adelaide ranks third in the Group of Eight and fourth nationally in commercialisation and contract research income and generated $41.5 million in 2014, so they are doing some good things there. They have world-class research expertise in many areas, including advanced manufacturing, engineering, agriculture, defence and security, energy and mining, environment and health. These are many of the areas that this government is focusing on through its industry growth centres.

The University of Adelaide has recently moved up the prestigious Times Higher Education international rankings, which were released recently, breaking into the top 150 for the first time. What they are doing will help recruit more international students and the best academics from around the world to the state. It will also help attract more research support from the government and industry.

The University of Adelaide recently launched a major new research hub that will add significant value to Australia's $6 billion-a-year copper industry.

Mr Champion interjecting—

I hear the member for Wakefield is supportive of such an initiative, which is good to hear from that side of the chamber.

The Australian Research Council Research Hub for Australian Copper-Uranium, based at the University of Adelaide, involves key industry, university and government partners in South Australia and nationally. Partners include BHP Billiton, OZ Minerals, the Defence Science and Technology Group—a great Australian government operation—Flinders University, Monash University and the University of Queensland. As you can see, it is a collaboration between many universities and industry.

Before I finish, I commend Flinders University—another of my alma maters—on its new appointment to the South Australian Chair of Restorative Care to transform South Australia into a state that is at the forefront of active, healthy ageing and wellness. The ACH Group, a very large and significant aged-care provider, has jointly invested in the establishment of the new position at Flinders University in recognition of the importance of restoration and rehabilitation to the future of aged care. Dr Rungie, the ACH Group's chief executive, said that health and ageing was a future growth area for jobs, with a projected 1,500 per year across Australia being required until at least 2050. These are the sectors that will be growing in the future. They will provide opportunities for both the young and old to work in the industries that have potential and face demand from so many sectors. Through this bill the government is helping universities to be more efficient. All South Australian universities are doing some great things, and I have touched on some this afternoon, including partnering with industry to reach their potential. I commend the bill to the House.

Lisa Chesters (Bendigo, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I do not think that anybody denies the importance of international students and their education to our country—our economy, our terms of trade and the enrichment of our communities. This international education area, whether you want to call it an industry or a sector, has rapidly increased in the last decade. But the best examples of quality education have not always come with that increase.

Whilst some of this legislation before us will be supported by Labor, we are recommending that other parts of go to a Senate inquiry to be teased out to work out where the potential gaps are and where, under the guise of red tape, we might be condoning some of the dodgy practices that are currently going on within the international student higher education space. We need to ensure that there are safeguards around quality in order to maintain a high reputation in this space both nationally and internationally.

Overseas students need to know that when they come to Australia they will receive a quality education that meets high standards. But, reading the media reports about what has been going on in this space, it is clear that not all students studying here are receiving a high-quality education. For years we have heard the anecdotal evidence that has come forward. I am sure many people here have met international students who have terrible stories to tell about how they have been exploited, ripped off and had shocking experiences in our higher education sector. There is need to reform this space to ensure that when students come here they are getting what they signed up for.

The Education Services for Overseas Students Amendment (Streamlining Regulation) Bill 2015 and the Education Services for Overseas Students (Registration Charges) Amendment (Streamlining Regulation) Bill 2015 are a part of the Liberal government's agenda to deregulate and reduce red tape in the post-secondary education sector. As such, Labor is determined to ensure that any reforms do not weaken the safeguards needed to ensure that education standards for international students are protected. Why is it so important that we have these safeguards in place?

Between 2008 and 2011, 54 colleges collapsed, affecting 13,000 students. Only 312 students received refunds from their education institutions—and these are just the ones we know about. Since then, there have been more. On an almost weekly basis we are hearing more and more reports of these colleges across the country either collapsing or delivering students, who do not meet minimum standards of skills and qualifications, into careers in those areas of study. These issues, together with the information about colleges operating as immigration scams—something that a number of us have spoken about in this place—mean that now more than ever we need to ensure that we have the proper rules in place so that international students seeking a higher education receive what they have paid for.

The national regulators for higher education and vocational studies have proven to be successful. Between July 2012 and December 2014, 12 colleges who were not offering the quality courses that they claimed to have been were closed. But the number of closures was fewer than in previous years. With the right reforms in place we can ensure that we have the standards, we can ensure that the people going to those colleges do get the education they are seeking, and we can ensure that there are fewer collapses—and therefore fewer students having their courses cancelled at the last minute.

As has been exposed recently in the media, through evidence at committee hearings and through work being done in the other place, exploitation via sham contracting arrangements has entered into the space of international student higher education. Two examples that have received attention recently are Australian Post and 7-Eleven, where international students are being exploited. They are being exploited in the workplace and exploited through their study. This is the dark underbelly of the system that we cannot ignore. Yes, ministers like to stand up here and preach about the dollars that the international student market brings to this country, but some of that money is dodgy and is a dark underbelly of our community and our economy.

Some international students have become part of an exploited workforce. They come here with the best of intentions; they come here to study. They sign up in their home country for what they believe will be a quality international student education experience in Australia only to come here and find that the college is a sham—a small office somewhere in West Melbourne or somewhere in the backstreets of Brisbane—and then be forced or coerced into working for a dodgy labour supply subcontractor. Two of the cases that have made news recently have been Australian Post and 7-Eleven. International students being paid as little as $4 an hour have come forward. They have spoken out about their experiences and are seeking amnesty from the government so they can help us to try to clean this up—so that future international students are not exploited in this way.

I raise this issue because it is important that the colleges and the universities that are attracting the students take responsibility for what happens to them. They need to take responsibility, and this government needs to force them to take responsibility, so that people who come here to study receive a quality education, are safe at work and are safe where they live.

What has not had as much media attention as the 7-Eleven and the Australian Post examples is what is going on in our cleaning industry. International student education is a major driver of the Australian economy. As many people have said, it is, depending upon which figures you use, one of our largest exporters, earning over $15 billion in export income annually and supporting about 100,000 jobs. Those are the headline figures that ministers in this place like to stand up and proudly proclaim. But let us remember who is at the heart of that money they are so proud of, that $15 billion of annual export income: it is these international students. We need to talk about the experience that they are having here in this country.

In Melbourne, in Sydney and in Brisbane—in fact in every major capital city where we have large numbers of these international students studying—they constitute much of our cleaning workforce. These international students work for subcontractors or principal contractors. Whether it be at Crown Casino, at major buildings, or even at their own university, international students are the labour force of the cleaning industry in many of these places. How did they get these jobs working in the cleaning industry? Through the colleges where they are studying. They have signed them up for labour hire. They have signed them up for the course, they have signed them up for the job and they have signed them up for their accommodation. There is a dodgy scam going on in some places in the higher education sector that needs to be cleaned up.

I acknowledge that it is not just the colleges that need to do it. I acknowledge that the Fair Work Ombudsman needs to be involved when it comes to work rights, that we need to involve state governments when it comes to the tenancy arrangements, and that we need to involve the federal government when it comes to the colleges themselves. This is why we cannot afford to weaken the safeguards that are in place.

What has been the experience of the international students who are the labour force for so many of the cleaning companies, and the subcontractors of those cleaning companies, in our CBD? There was a report done by United Voice a few years ago in conjunction with the University of Victoria. It is a proper report that exposed this dark underbelly, that exposed what is going on in the cleaning industry. What they found was that some shadowy contractors could be defrauding building owners by agreeing to pay the proper rates but then paying their workers as little as $15 an hour. This report found that international students working for subcontractors were being ripped off by as much as $15,000 per year. The contractors were using methods like making the students get ABNs so that they could get round the minimum engagement requirement of 20 hours a week. They were also using arrangements where they would put the money into the students' bank accounts and then take it back out—we have heard that story before. These are people who have come here with the best intentions—to get higher education, a quality education—only to be exploited by the very people who recruited them to the colleges, signed them up for dodgy education and then signed them up to dodgy workplace arrangements where they are being underpaid.

Can you imagine how much these contractors are making when they are ripping off international students by up to $15,000 a year? These are people working for some of the biggest cleaning contractors in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and all our other major capital cities. In fact some of these cleaning contractors and subcontractors who hire international students clean the very universities those students are supposedly getting an education at.

Weakening the safeguards in this space will only make it harder for us to crack down on this dodgy underbelly of our higher education system, on this terrible exploitation that is occurring. I have mentioned what is going on in the space of work and how this government needs to ensure that there are safeguards in place for people at work. I have mentioned that we need to get on top of the colleges to make sure that they are offering a quality education. We also need to look at students' living arrangements. It is heartbreaking to meet groups of international students who may be living with 10 to 15 people all squashed into one three-bedroom house.

Ross Vasta (Bonner, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The debate is interrupted in accordance with standing order 43. I thank the honourable member. The debate may be resumed at a later hour.