Linda Burney (Barton, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Families and Social Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I pre-empt my comments on this legislation by advising that I will be moving an amendment to the legislation. The amendment has been circulated in my name, and I'm happy to go through it. I move:

That all words after "That" be omitted with a view to substituting the following words:

"whilst not declining to give the bill a second reading, the House:

1. notes that:

a. this Coalition Government has spent five years trying to cut the pension and increase the pension age to 70;

b. in every Budget, this Government has tried to cut the pension—including a plan to change indexation, which would have left pensioners $80 a week worse off;

c. the Government did a deal with the Greens political party to change the pension assets test and cut the pension for 370,000 pensioners; and

d. the Government spent years trying to cut the energy supplement to new pensioners; and

2. criticises the Government for its cuts to social security, including the pension, and their ongoing demonisation of social security recipients".

Kevin Andrews (Menzies, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the amendment seconded?

Madeleine King (Brand, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Trade) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I second the amendment and reserve my right to speak.

Linda Burney (Barton, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Families and Social Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise to speak to the Social Services Legislation Amendment (Overseas Welfare Recipients Integrity Program) Bill 2019. Labor supports this bill. It is important that social security is available for people when they need it but also that we ensure the integrity of our payment system, as that integrity is critical for public confidence.

The bill will require Australian social security recipients who are over 80 years old and who have resided overseas for more than two years to provide a proof-of-life certificate. A new certificate will be required every two years. Once contacted by Centrelink, a person will have 13 weeks to provide a proof-of-life certificate certified by an authorised certifier. Details will be finalised in subordinate legislation, but the government has indicated in the explanatory memorandum that authorised certifiers will include judges and magistrates, medical doctors, and staff at an Australian embassy, consulate or high commission. If a proof-of-life certificate is not received by Centrelink within the required 13 weeks a person's payment will be suspended for the following 13 weeks. If a certificate is not provided within the suspension period or the person does not re-enter Australia the payment will be cancelled. However, if at any time after the payment is suspended or cancelled a person provides a proof-of-life certificate to Centrelink their payment will recommence with full back pay. This is a very important principle in the social security payment system. Around 96,000 people who receive an Australian social security payment—usually the age pension—live overseas permanently.

It is important for the House to note that Australia's social security system, particularly the age pension, is one of the few with transportable components. The age pension, disability support pension, widow B pension, wife pension and carer payment can be paid to people who live permanently overseas when either the person's payment has unlimited portability under the Social Security Act or the payment is made under one of Australia's international social security agreements. This sounds complex, but, as I indicated earlier, it is important that parts of the social security payment system—the parts that I've outlined—are transportable. Currently, payments continue until a person's death is reported to Centrelink by family or friends. That is why this bill, whilst it may seem like a small piece of legislation, is quite important.

The death rate of age pensioners living overseas is currently significantly lower than of those in Australia, indicating that Centrelink is not being notified of the death in a timely manner in all cases. That's really important. The social security system relies on a family member or a friend giving notification of the death of someone living overseas who was over 80. As I said, there are 96,000 of these people in receipt of social security payment. So, until that notification from a family friend or a relative is actually received, the Centrelink payment continues to be paid. I won't go into detail, but people can understand the implications of this particular aspect of age pensioners living overseas.

It is, of course, possible that in many cases this happens because friends and family simply do not realise they need to tell Centrelink. That's a very real thing. In the midst of grief, in the midst of a loved one passing away overseas, the mechanics of the bureaucracy is the last thing on people's minds, and perhaps this is the case in a number of these particular instances. Friends and family might assume that payments are stopped automatically. It's important to understand that these payments don't stop until there is a formal notification, which, in my experience, usually includes a death certificate as well. That certificate is not issued for some time after the person's passing, and this is much more complicated, of course, if the person lived overseas. So you can understand how this happens. When a person lived overseas, payments do not necessarily stop automatically. Proof-of-life certificates are required by several European countries with portable social security payments.

Labor is very concerned that the government runs a very high risk of mucking up the implementation of these changes, just as they mucked up robo-debt. I won't go into any explanation there; I think everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about when I say robo-debt. It is a major problem, and there is now, I am advised, a strong focus on students who did some tertiary study. The muck-up of robo debt has run down Centrelink services to the point where pensioners are waiting months to get a pension, and that's a very real thing. I know that in all of our constituencies people who are waiting for the age pension are waiting nine, 10, 11 and even 12 months before their pension is actually processed. This means people are living on savings and they're running down their superannuation—an unacceptable situation.

The last thing you want to see is pensioners having their payments cut off because Centrelink didn't contact them properly or took too long to process their certificate when it was returned. If people have questions, they should not be left waiting on the phone for hours. Unfortunately, this continues to be the case at Centrelink. It is absolutely critical that the government has the right systems and resources in place to make this work, and that local certifying arrangements are not impossibly onerous for older Australians living overseas. That's a very important point. As I said, this legislation applies to people over the age of 80. It requires those individuals to provide a certificate every two years showing that they are still living. That may sound strange to some people, but when you start thinking about the implications you understand why this certifying arrangement is necessary.

We know this government's record when it comes to treatment of pensioners and older Australians. We've heard stories of pensioners waiting hours on the phone just to speak to someone in Centrelink. We've heard stories of pensioners waiting months to have their applications and payments processed. We've all experienced that. The reality is that this government's record on its treatment of pensioners has been absolutely atrocious. Cutting the pension is in the Liberals' DNA. I have said that on many occasions, but let me expand on that point. The Liberal coalition has tried to cut the pension and increase the pension age to 70 in every budget, including its three budgets when the current Prime Minister had the job of Treasurer. In the 2014 budget, the attempt was made to cut pension indexation. The cut would have meant that pensioners would have been forced to live on $80 a week less within 10 years. This unfair cut would have ripped $23 billion from the pockets of every single pensioner in Australia. In the 2014 budget they cut $1 billion from the pensioner concession—support designed to help pensioners with the costs of living. In the 2014 budget they axed the $900 seniors supplement and in the 2014 budget they tried to reset deeming rate thresholds, a cut that could have seen 500,000 part-pensioners made worse off. In the 2015 budget, the Liberals did a deal with the Greens to cut the pension to around 370,000 pensioners by as much as $1,200 a year by changing the pensioner assets test. In the 2016 budget there was an attempt to cut the pension to around 190 pensioners as part of a plan to limit overseas travel for pensioners to six weeks. We've seen the attempt to scrap the energy supplement. As I said, the government's own figures show they would have left over 563,000 pensioners worse off had the supplement been cut. It was only after a concerted campaign by seniors groups and Labor that many of these things were rectified or did not happen.

The Liberals still have cuts to the pension in the budget. The Liberals want to completely take away the pension supplement for pensioners who go overseas for more than six weeks. This will see around $120 million ripped from the pockets of pensioners. And the Liberals still want to make pensioners born overseas wait longer before qualifying for the age pension by increasing the residency requirements.

This week again we glimpsed the Prime Minister's disdain for older Australians. We saw the refusal of the Prime Minister to increase the rate of Newstart and a proposal to drug test Newstart recipients, when we know that one in four Australians on Newstart are aged over the age of 55. Older Australians experience difficulty in re-entering the workforce. Older Australians who are desperately trying to re-enter the workforce are asking themselves: how will a cashless card or a drug test help me get a job?

We see the spectre of the government wanting to move people on social security payments onto the cashless debit card, which I know we will debate in the chamber in the weeks to come. I say to the Prime Minister: what is your plan for jobs? What is the Prime Minister's plan for the economy? The reason why this Prime Minister is reheating old ideas is that he has run out of new ones. Rather than stimulating our stagnating economy and easing the situation for older Australians who have fallen on hard times, the Prime Minister is more interested in subjecting them to a humiliating urine test by way of the drug-testing idea. It is an absolute shame, as my colleague has said. How is it that Scott Morrison spends so much time obsessing over and devising ways to humiliate the proud older Australians who are trying to re-enter the workforce? It is an absolute shame. And the government should be ashamed that they are even blowing the dust off things like expansion of the cashless debit card and drug testing of people who are receiving a Centrelink payment, particularly when we know so many of those people are over the age of 55.

This legislation is important because there are so many Australians who do live overseas—96,000, as I said. And, unlike in many other countries, many social security payments are transportable. I want to reiterate what those transportable payments are, because it's unusual in any social security system. It is the age pension. We know that there are something like 1.2 to two million Australians who are on the age pension and on the disability support pension, which is aimed at people with extreme illnesses or a disability that does not allow them to participate in the workforce or participate in a limited way in the workforce. The widow B pension, the wife pension and the carer payment are also extremely important to underscore. These payments, as I said, are the payments that are applicable in terms of this piece of legislation.

The interesting thing that I've heard in bringing this legislation forward is that it is hard to get your head around how usually the onus is the other way around, but this is to make sure that people who live overseas over the age of 80 and are on any of those benefits—in this case it would be the age pension that this applies to. We hope it won't be onerous and are making sure that there are, as the government has outlined in this bill, a broad sweep of places where you can actually obtain this certificate. We also say very much to the government that, when there has been a death, particularly of a person overseas, quite often people do not understand that they need to advise Centrelink for those payments to stop. Perhaps there needs to be a bit more explanation and education about that.

I cannot reiterate how under siege age pensioners have been in terms of this government. I have outlined clearly what was attempted in the 2014 budget: resetting the deeming rate thresholds, axing the $900 energy supplement and also the $1 billion taken from pensioner concessions. I've also outlined the way in which in the 2016 budget the government attempted to limit overseas travel for pensioners, and that had an impact in a number of electorates that had high numbers of people born overseas. They have gone back to visit ageing relatives, and that is something that I know people in the electorate of Barton often do. Their relatives are in their 90s, and the idea of trying to cut the pension off for people who are going back to do that was just abhorrent. And it was really a very difficult task to make sure that that didn't take place.

I don't believe that the Prime Minister has given up on the idea of the increase of the pension age to 70, but Labor is firmly of a view that the rate set at the moment is absolutely appropriate. If you have worked in construction, if you have worked in manual labour all your life, the idea of a broken body working to the age of 70 is something that just is not tenable and certainly is not acceptable. I also wanted to add that it has been concerted campaigns by seniors groups and Labor that have made sure these abhorrent changes have not taken place.

I think the most important thing to say as well is that it seems to me that if you have to fight tooth and nail to protect pensioners then you've got to say, 'What is this parliament coming to?' Pensioners, particularly people on the age pension, deserve our respect. They deserve our commitment and they deserve our loyalty. They have worked their entire lives. They have paid taxes. They are people that have made sure that in very difficult times the Australian economy has continued.

And the other thing, of course, is to ask clearly and firmly about the agenda of the government: 'What is your plan for getting older people back into the workforce?' If you are 50 or 55 and your industry is closed down or you have been retrenched, it is extremely difficult to get another job, particularly if you've been in that industry for 30 or 40 years, as many of these people have been. And there is no indication, no plan from this government, for retraining. There is certainly no plan for making sure that older people are able to get back into good jobs that afford them their dignity.

The Prime Minister and the government need to understand that drug testing people on Newstart will affect many older Australians. The idea of asking someone who is 55 and has worked solidly for the last 40 years to urinate into a cup to prove to Centrelink that they're not a drug addict is an absolute insult. The real question is: what is the plan to grow the economy? What is the plan to get people in this category back into the workforce? They are not people who should be thrown on the scrap heap. They are people who have for their entire lives worked and contributed to the Australian economy. We owe those people a commitment that they will not spend their ensuing years on Centrelink until they become eligible for the age pension—if you can ever get an application through for the age pension.

Keep in mind that Labor has moved a second reading amendment to this legislation. I believe the government have a start date for this bill, which they are providing to us. The government's complete lack of commitment to pensioners is well documented. It is well documented in the way I have spoken about it here this afternoon. It's also well documented that the Prime Minister was the Treasurer for three budgets and each and every one of those budgets had an attack on pensions, which I have also outlined.

I finish by saying that this legislation relates to people who have for some time lived overseas accessing the social security system. As I said, Australia is fairly unique. It is amongst a small number of nations that have a transportable welfare system, which I think is absolutely appropriate. We should have a transportable social security system but there has to be integrity within that system. There has to be within that system the capacity to make sure people who are in receipt of social security payments are actually meeting a number of obligations.

The amendment Labor moved goes to the cuts to the age pension, the age of people who qualify for the pension and a whole range of other issues that I've outlined in the comments that I have made today. I finish by saying that this legislation in terms of age pensioners living overseas does not address the other ills that I've outlined. The government has tried year in and year out, budget in and budget out, to pursue cutting pensions, increasing the age of qualifying for the age pension, limiting overseas travel for the 190,000 pensioners who have family and relatives living overseas and, most egregiously, cutting the energy supplement to new pensioners. The government talks up bringing energy prices down, but it is not true. I think trying to scrap the energy supplement was an absolute new low.

Labor will always stand up for age pensioners. We will always stand up for the many tens of thousands of people who have spent their entire life making sure that this Australian economy works well and who have worked in industries that, through no fault of their own, have been made non-existent, or they've been retrenched and now find themselves on a Centrelink payment for the first time in their life, not for any other reason than circumstances. It is those people that we will always stand up for. I make these comments and move Labor's amendments.

Kevin Andrews (Menzies, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Just to clarify the procedure, I'll ask for the amendment to be seconded again. Will the member for Greenway second the amendment? The member for Greenway has seconded the amendment.

Vince Connelly (Stirling, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

From 1 October 2019, pensioners aged 80 years and over who permanently live overseas will be required to complete proof-of-life certificates every two years to continue receiving their payment. Currently the Department of Human Services mostly relies on voluntary reporting by family members or friends to report the death of a pension recipient overseas. Payments can continue until this is reported. This government is committed to maintaining a welfare system that is fair and sustainable. The measures introduced in this bill strengthen the integrity of the welfare system by making sure that Australian pensions are only being paid to pensioners who are still alive.

Why are we doing this? Because this government believes in continually striving for a fairer society, one in which the government manages its finances responsibly. From our government you have seen certainty, you have seen stability. You have seen a plan, a plan that we took to the Australian people, a plan that we put in our budget, a plan that foresaw the challenges that Australia was going to face and a government that's steadfastly getting on with implementing that plan.

Australia is a multicultural society, with around one-third of Australians being born overseas. In fact, in my electorate of Stirling nearly half of all people, 46 per cent to be exact, were born overseas, and a language other than English is spoken in one in three homes. The government recognises that many people wish to return to their country of birth to be with family or friends at a later stage in life. Therefore it is not unreasonable to expect a large number of Australian pensioners to retire overseas. In fact, Australia pays a pension to approximately 96,000 Australian pensioners who live overseas. These 96,000 age pension, disability support pension, widow B pension, wife pension and carer payment recipients currently live overseas in about 100 different countries. Of these, approximately 25,000 are aged 80 years and over. It is estimated that this measure will identify approximately 6,000 pensioners over the forward estimates who are deceased and are still receiving payments overseas. This measure is expected to save around $219 million over the forward estimates as a result of identifying deceased pensioners earlier. This measure is one of many which demonstrate the financial responsibility of this government. Our budget is coming back to surplus for the first time in more than a decade as we maintain our record of fiscal discipline and targeted spending.

How will this process work? Pensioners aged 80 and over residing permanently overseas for more than two years will need to complete and return a proof-of-life certificate every two years to continue to receive their pension overseas. To help protect against fraud, the certificates will have to be verified. Pensioners will have a range of options available to have their certificate verified. These may include, but are not limited to, a judge or magistrate of a law court; a medical doctor who is registered or licensed to practise in that country; or a police officer or a notary public or Australian official at an embassy, consulate or high commission. This will provide overseas pension recipients with multiple options for verifying this proof-of-life certificate, making the process as easy and practical as possible.

The measures include safeguards to reinstate a living pensioner's payment if they are suspended or cancelled: if the pensioner makes contact with the Department of Human Services and provides a completed proof-of-life certificate, the Secretary of the Department of Social Services or an appropriate delegate will have the discretion to reinstate the payment. A pensioner who has their payment reinstated will be paid any arrears to which they are entitled. This process will make sure that only people entitled to an Australian pension continue to receive it, whilst minimising the impact on pensioners who do the right thing.

It is important to note that there are safety nets in place. Pensioners will be given 13 weeks to respond to the request. If there is no response, the pension will be suspended for up to 13 weeks. If they still haven't responded after this time—26 weeks in total—their payment will be cancelled. Twenty-six weeks: that's half a year. I'm sure you'd agree that this is a very generous period of time which a pensioner has to respond to a request for communication from their home government. Should they make contact with DHS and provide their completed proof-of-life certificate after this time, their payment will be reinstated without the pensioner needing to re-claim. A pensioner who has their payment reinstated will be paid any arrears to which they are entitled. Provided that a pensioner responds and provides their completed proof-of-life certificate within 39 weeks after the initial request being sent, they will be able to receive full arrears.

Australia is certainly not the first country to implement a similar arrangement to that outlined in the proposed legislative amendments. Life certificates or proof-of-life requests are commonly used for pension eligibility confirmation by European countries—for example: the United Kingdom, Germany, the Netherlands, France and Italy. And in some countries they have been in use for more than a decade. This proposed amendment would bring Australia into line with many other countries who have already adopted similar arrangements. Some countries request these certificates annually or biennially. These countries do not restrict their processes to a particular age group.

This government is committed to maintaining a welfare system that is both fair and sustainable. The measures introduced in this bill strengthen the integrity of the welfare system by making sure that Australian pensions are only being paid to pensioners who are still alive. I commend this bill to the House.

Celia Hammond (Curtin, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I speak in support of the Social Services Legislation Amendment (Overseas Welfare Recipients Integrity Program) Bill 2019.

As the member for Stirling just said, this government is committed to maintaining a welfare system that is fair and sustainable. The measure introduced in this bill strengthens the integrity of the welfare system by making sure that Australian pensions are only being paid to pensioners who are still alive. There are approximately 96,000 age pension, disability support pension, widow B pension, wife pension and carer payment recipients currently living permanently overseas, in about 100 different countries. Of these, approximately 25,000 are aged over 80.

Currently, the Department of Human Services mostly relies on voluntary reporting by family members or friends on the death of a pension recipient overseas. Payments can continue until this is reported. Sometimes these payments continue through the deliberate and intentional fraud of others. Sometimes it happens unintentionally—people not realising that they need to notify the department of the death of another person. Sometimes it arises through misunderstanding, as many overseas pension or national insurance schemes may be bequeathed to or inherited by partners or family members after the recipient dies. This can create some misunderstanding, with pension recipients and their families living overseas believing that they can continue to receive the Australian pension when the pension recipient dies.

The process being introduced in this bill addresses all three scenarios in a balanced way. It will make sure that only people entitled to an Australian pension continue to receive it and it minimises the impact on pensioners who do the right thing. It is estimated that these measures will identify approximately 6,000 pensioners over the forward estimates who are deceased but to whom payments are still being made. The measure is expected to save around $219 million over the forward estimates from 2019-20 to 2022-23 as a result of identifying deceased pensioners earlier.

Pensioners aged 80 years and over and residing permanently overseas for longer than two years will need to complete and return a proof of life certificate every two years to continue to receive the pension while they are overseas. To help protect against fraud, the certificates will have to be verified. Pensioners will have a range of options available to have their certificate verified. These may include but are not limited to a judge or magistrate of a law court, a medical doctor who is registered or licensed to practise in that country, a police officer, a notary public or an Australian official at an embassy, consulate or high commission. This provides overseas pension recipients with multiple options for verifying the proof of life certificate, making the process as easy and practical as possible.

There are a number of safeguards built within this amendment bill. They include the ability to reinstate a living pensioner's payment if it is suspended or cancelled. The process is as follows. Pensioners will be given 13 weeks to respond to the request for proof of life. If they provide no response, their pension will be suspended for a period of up to 13 weeks. If the pensioner still hasn't responded after this time, a period of 26 weeks in total, their payment will be cancelled. Should that pensioner then make contact with the Department of Human Services and provide their completed proof of life certificate after this time, their payment can be reinstated without the pensioner being required to reclaim. A pensioner who has had their payment reinstated will be paid any arrears to which they are entitled. Provided a pensioner responds and provides their completed proof of life certificate within 39 weeks of the initial request being sent, they will be able to receive full arrears.

Requirements for proof of life certificates are not unusual and are commonly used in other countries. Many European countries—for example, the United Kingdom, Germany, the Netherlands, France and Italy—insist upon them, and in some countries they have required these for more than a decade. Some countries require them on an annual basis and some on a biannual basis, and some don't restrict it to any particular age group.

As I said at the outset—and I confirm what the member for Stirling said earlier—this government is committed to maintaining a welfare system that is fair and sustainable. The measure introduced in this bill strengthens the integrity of the welfare system by making sure that Australian pensions are only being paid to pensioners who are still alive. It does so in a balanced way without being too onerous on pensioners themselves and it provides sufficient safeguards and avenues for reinstatement of the pension payments to living pensioners whose payments may have been suspended or cancelled. I commend the amendment bill to the House.

Mark Coulton (Parkes, Deputy-Speaker, Assistant Trade and Investment Minister) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The government recognises that, as we are a multicultural country, many Australian pensioners wish to retire overseas to their country of birth or to be with family and friends. As a result, Australia pays approximately 96,000 pensions to people residing overseas. This bill will require that, from 1 October 2019, pensioners who are aged 80 years and over and who reside permanently overseas complete and return a proof-of-life certificate in order to continue receiving the pension. This will confirm that Australian pensions are being paid only to pensioners who are still alive. The introduction of the proof-of-life process will bring Australia into line with current international practice. Many other countries around the world, such as the United Kingdom, Germany, the Netherlands, France and Italy, have processes to verify that a pensioner living overseas is still alive, including a requirement to complete a proof-of-life certificate. This measure will require approximately 25,000 pensioners living overseas who are aged 80 and over to provide a proof-of-life certificate. This process has been targeted at pensioners aged 80 and over so as to minimise the administrative burden on pensioners while still protecting the integrity of Australia's welfare system.

To help protect against fraud, the certificates will have to be verified. Pensioners overseas will have multiple options for verifying their proof-of-life certificate and a reasonable time frame in which to provide their completed and verified certificate. If a pensioner does not return their completed proof-of-life certificate within 13 weeks their pension will be suspended. If they do not return their completed proof-of-life certificate within a further 13 weeks of suspension, making 26 weeks in total, their payment will be cancelled. The measure includes safeguards to reinstate a living pensioner's payment if it is suspended or cancelled. They will have their payment reinstated if they provide a completed proof-of-life certificate and will be paid any arrears to which they are entitled. Full arrears will be paid if they provide a completed proof-of-life certificate within 39 weeks of the initial request being sent. This is a new and more-generous back pay arrangement designed for this measure.

The new proof-of-life arrangements will strengthen the integrity of the welfare system by providing a regular and robust mechanism for ensuring Australian pensions are being paid only to pensioners who are still alive. It is estimated that this measure will identify around 6,000 cases over four years where payments are still being made to people who are deceased. This will save Australian taxpayers around $219 million over the forward estimates. The measure being introduced in this bill reflects the government's ongoing commitment to maintaining a fair and sustainable welfare system for both recipients and taxpayers. I commend the bill to the House.

Tony Smith (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The original question was that this bill be now read a second time. To this the honourable member for Barton has moved as an amendment that all words after 'That' be omitted with a view to substituting other words. The question before the House is that the amendment moved by the member for Barton be agreed to.