Tony Zappia (Makin, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I begin by commending the minister on his statement in September and his timely response to the interim report of the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide. The royal commission that the last coalition government dithered and delayed in establishing is now well under way. I have to say, it was long overdue and it is somewhat disappointing that the Morrison government did in fact procrastinate in establishing it. That more serving and former defence personnel suicided over the past 20 years than were lost in the Iraq and Afghanistan over the same period is indeed a damning statistic. That it took so long for the Morrison government to react is equally deplorable. However, it has not just been the governments that have failed our defence personnel over the years'; it has also been the defence chiefs and the heads of the relevant government departments who have also failed our serving and former defence servicemen and women.

While I welcome all of the measures referred to in the minister's statement, I believe what is also required is a change of culture throughout the sectors entrusted with caring for current and past defence members. Without a change of attitude from those entrusted with our Defence Force members' care, the measures announced by the minister will not be as effective as they otherwise would be. Some defence veterans have said to me that a culture change will only come if those at the top are replaced. I contrast the attitude of the paid officials with that of the many volunteer groups with whom I have worked over the years, who work with very little resources to do so much to support our present and past defence personnel. I refer to the Tea Tree Gully, Salisbury and Northfield RSL organisations in the Makin electorate and I am sure there are similar organisations right throughout the country. In my region we also have the northern branch of the Vietnam Veterans Association, the Para District sub branch of the National Servicemen's Association, the Peter Badcoe Ex-Military Rehabilitation Centre, the military and historical vehicles museum and the team of Operation Unity led by Bill Bates and supported by a small band of volunteers. Earlier this year, Operation Unity presented a combined sum of $16,000 dollars to Trojan's Trek, Legacy SA and Broken Hill and Operation K9. All three of those recipients provide support services to defence veterans and their families and they do so, again, relying on their own band of volunteers with very little financial support. I work for many of those organisations and, in fact, with just about all of them, I was there when they were established. They came together because they saw a need that was not being met by the very department for which our defence veterans had previously served. They saw the need because they were all former veterans. Because no-one else was providing the support of the members and their families, all of those groups—and again, I expect there would be similar groups throughout the country—came into being to try and fill that gap. In doing so, I know they have made an incredible difference to the lives of the people they have been able to work with. But of course, their resources are limited and they cannot provide the same level of services to all the defence veterans around the country. Each year, some 6,000 serving men and women leave the service, so when you look at the total numbers around Australia you can appreciate the magnitude of those who need support.

I also acknowledge the work of Dr Glen Edwards. Dr Edwards served as a medic in Vietnam. After Vietnam, he studied psychology. He went on to write two books about the Vietnam War service and the psychological after-effects of that war. Those two books, titled The War Within and Beyond Dark Clouds, provide an insight into the effects of war and the struggles of veterans and their families. Using his personal war experience and his studies, Dr Glen Edwards has devoted much of his life to working with veterans who are struggling with the psychological after-effects of military service. Again, I applaud Dr Edwards because I know that through his work many, many veterans have been able to get on with their lives. I've spoken at length with him on several occasions. I had the privilege of launching one of his books. I know how devoted he has become, as a result of his service in Vietnam, to supporting his fellow servicemen and women. Again, Dr Glen Edwards doesn't do it because he's funded to do so; he does it because he cares.

The impact of war service on veterans and their families has been well known for years. Whether it's suicide, homelessness, alcohol and drug abuse or family break-ups, these are all too common amongst veterans. Indeed, I understand there were some 50 previous reports dealing with veteran service. Out of those reports there were some 750 recommendations, and the reality is very few of those reports ever saw the light of day and very few of those recommendations were ever adopted. It is time to stop turning a blind eye and stop pretending the problems will go away. That is why I welcome the statement from the Minister for Veterans' Affairs and Defence Personnel. I welcome his commitment to increasing defence staff by around 500 and a range of other measures he has announced which will make a difference to our defence personnel and their families, such as the establishment of veterans hubs around the country, increasing housing support for our defence families and increasing the funding that goes towards all the services required by the veterans and their families, who suffer equally. And support will be provided by additional staff in the administration of defence services around the country.

I'll be attending a veterans' event when I get back to Adelaide as one of my first public events. From my experience and from my discussions with veterans, there is a widespread common sentiment among veterans—that is, once their service ends, they are provided with inadequate support services. They feel abandoned. There's no transition advice or support provided to them. For those veterans who directly served in military conflict, who witnessed the horrors of wars, who saw their mates wounded or killed, who saw civilians slaughtered, those experiences will be traumatic and life-changing. It will affect the character of them all. For all those reasons, their service is unique and, because it is unique, they need those services that they have been calling for for so long. Our veterans deserve better. They deserve more than words and thank yous. The minister's statement for funding, staffing and housing commitments is very welcome. I commend minister's statement to the House.

Kylea Tink (North Sydney, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

With the work that we do in this House, we frequently are given an opportunity to speak about something that relates to us very personally. Today I'm very honoured to be able to stand as North Sydney's representative to offer some thoughts on the government's response to the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide interim report. As I read through this report, there were a lot of numbers that were simply breathtaking. For example, we know that there are nearly 600,000 veterans living across Australia and, very sadly and completely unacceptably, there are currently 42,000 of those veterans waiting for their compensation claims to be processed. We also know that more serving personnel and veterans have died from suicide than the total number of Australians that were killed during operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, with that number running at the staggering figure of over 1,200 deaths between 2001 and 2019. We know that research carried out in 2019 found that the age-adjusted rate for suicide for ex-serving women was more than double that for the general Australian female population as a whole, while ex-servicemen had the highest overall rate of deaths per 100,000 people, with 27 ex-servicemen choosing to take their own lives. Commissioners have noted particular concerns over the transition from military to civilian life, with approximately 6,000 people leaving military service every year, and they've argued that we must do more to raise cultural awareness about the issues that our veterans face: their health—GPs need to be educated—the culture that surrounds them, and the Department of Veterans' Affairs and how it operates.

For me, as I read this report, I see three people who were very close to me and who fundamentally informed the way I grew up. The first is my grandfather Delmyr Gosper, who served in the Second World War. He enlisted as one man and came home as a very different one. To me, while he was always a loving grandfather and somebody who I have very dear memories of, I know that those who were closest to him witnessed and experienced the trauma he brought back to his family from that time. I didn't have a lot of time with my grandfather—he passed away when he was very young—but I did have more time with my uncle Joe Marshall, who was also an ex-serviceman.

Joe was one of those very brave military personnel who were frequently dropped into locations to spot, to see what was going on in enemy encampments and to then provide that information back to the forces that needed to respond. As a family, we didn't know that for many years, because his record was sealed. All we knew, and all I knew, of my uncle Joe was a silent figure who sat in an armchair in the back of a room and was at times incredibly frightening to approach. But, at the same time, you sensed he had so much more to offer; he just didn't know how to speak it.

More recently, I had the very dear pleasure of knowing Dave Stafford Finney. I knew him through his work with Camp Quality. He was one of our leaders down here in Canberra actually. He was an extraordinary young man. Dave was intelligent. He was witty. He had a humour that was wicked. He had a mother who loved him dearly, in Julie-Ann Finney. And still we lost Dave to suicide, when he chose to take his own life. How can it be that people who give so much to our country are left wanting so much in return?

The royal commission inquiry embarked in April 2021, and the interim report was released in August 2022. There is much for us to take from this interim report. There were 13 recommendations in the report, and I think they bear repeating. The first one hardly needs to be said out loud, but it is that we must simplify and harmonise the compensation and rehab routes in this country. The second is to eliminate the claims backlog. The third is to make the claims process simpler. The fourth is to ensure there's appropriate government funding. The fifth is to make sure the department that's charged with enacting all this is enabled and resourced to do so. The sixth is to increase the protections for persons engaging with the royal commission. The seventh is to provide exemption from parliamentary privilege. The eighth is to limit public interest immunity claims. The ninth is to improve release of information, because families do need to know what is going on with those that they love. The 10th is to focus on a co-design for the information. The 11th—and so basic a recommendation—is that we must have trauma-informed practices for information access. The 12th is to encourage further consent for information access. And the 13th is to co-design education on information systems.

We know that we now have the funding allocated for additional departmental staff and we have more emergency housing. We know that departmental staffing caps have now been lifted and that the government is in the process of recruiting 500 additional staff. These steps are truly welcomed by me and the wider community. The sad reality is that none of these things will bring back those whom we have lost, yet many of these things that are now coming into being are informed by the echoes of their voices and our memories of them. Commissioner Kaldas, who was the commission chair, said:

It is important we have a full picture of the problem, to understand where and how to best direct efforts to prevent suicide, and to improve the lives and wellbeing of the Defence and veteran community …

Public submissions into this important royal commission stay open until October 2023, which, I confess, to me feels like a lifetime away, and I know that to Julie-Ann Finney it also seems to be such a long time coming. We will then receive the final report in June 2024. I look forward hopefully to being part of a parliament that finally says, 'To those of you who have served us so well: we see you when you return; we not only appreciate everything that you did while you were away, but we are here to re-embrace and protect you and your families as you return to us.'

To everyone who is currently serving, I say, from every Australian: 'Thank you from the bottom of my heart.' And to all the families who live with those who serve, I say: 'You truly do have a hero in your midst.' We should be infinitely proud of everything these people continue to do for our nation.

Lisa Chesters (Bendigo, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the member for her heartfelt contribution.

Shayne Neumann (Blair, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

First, I want to thank the men and women who are serving on the RAAF base at Amberley in my electorate and the veteran community across Ipswich and the Somerset region for the work they do in supporting veterans and the work they do in engaging with me to achieve better outcomes for the veterans living in our community.

This is a royal commission that the coalition didn't want at all. I remember announcing Labor's position with then opposition leader Anthony Albanese and Julie-Ann Finney, when, back in 2019, we called for a royal commission into veteran suicide. I was the shadow minister for veterans' affairs and defence personnel. The government's response, of course, in all of this was an inadequate position, a national commissioner for defence and veteran suicide prevention, which they announced in early 2020. It didn't have support from the veterans community. Labor opposed it, the crossbenches opposed it and eventually, when faced with a motion in the House of Representatives, the government had to be forced, as a result of a backbench revolt from their own team—the motion having passed through the Senate—into announcing a royal commission.

That royal commission found some appalling things were happening in the department. After the election, Minister Gee announced there were $430 million in budget cuts that had not been announced by the coalition when they were last in government. He said that in his evidence to the royal commission. His words were, 'One step forward, two steps back.' He said that their policy in terms of the processing had a direct link to the mental health of veterans and suicidal ideation issues. He described the processing and the backlog of up to 50,000 people waiting to be processed as a 'national disgrace.' They were Minister Gee's words before the last budget of the coalition government.

The coalition does not have a good record at all on this issue. When the coalition was forced to announce a royal commission, Labor welcomed the appointment of former New South Wales deputy commissioner Nick Kaldas as lead commissioner, and former Queensland Supreme Court judge the Hon. James Douglas QC and mental health expert Peggy Brown as the other two commissioners. I want to thank them for their service and the work they've undertaken.

We offered to work with the government in opposition regarding terms of reference, and the government ignored the terms of reference we did. They also ignored the expert advisory group that veteran advocate Julie-Ann Finney convened. They utterly ignored that as well. We gave bipartisan support despite the fact the government ignored our entreaties in relation to it.

I was pleased to attend the opening ceremony and the hearing of the royal commission in Brisbane in November last year with three brave mothers, Julie-Anne Finney, Karen Bird and Nikki Jamieson, who tragically lost their sons and who turned that tragedy into advocacy. The royal commission is a culmination of years of tireless advocacy from these three inspirational women together with veterans communities, the RSL, Labor, advocates and crossbenchers.

Ultimately, we've come out with some interim reports with strong and enforceable recommendations, which, once implemented, I think will prevent tragic deaths from happening in the future. This is a real opportunity to fix our broken veteran support system, to identify problems and solutions, to listen to the ideas of veterans, to harmonise the legislation, and we need to make the most of it.

Unfortunately, for a long time, the rate of suicide amongst our veterans community has been significantly higher than the broader Australian community. The most recent Australian Institute of Health and Welfare monitoring report on defence and veteran suicide found that 1,600 ADF members and veterans with service after 1985 died by suicide between 1997 and 2020, including 79 deaths by suicide in 2020. This is consistent with previous reports which have revealed tragic circumstances, with ex-serving males 27 per cent more likely to die by suicide than Australian males and ex-serving females 107 per cent more likely to die by suicide than Australian females. Many who leave the ADF for involuntary medical reasons are three times as likely to die by suicide than those who leave voluntarily. It reaffirms why suicide prevention must be a matter of national priority and why we must remain vigilant.

The death by suicide of any Australian, including veterans and current serving ADF members, is a tragedy. As Commissioner Nick Kaldas said:

These aren't just numbers, but people who tragically felt they could not go on. Behind every death by suicide are family members, friends and colleagues whose lives are forever changed.

It's a travesty that Australia has lost more serving and former serving personnel to suicide over the last 20 years than through all of our operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. On top of this, we know that many veterans and families have had bad experiences dealing with Defence and the Department of Veterans' Affairs and have been treated appallingly. In many cases, they've not been able to access the support they deserve, compounded by the lack of information given about the tragic loss of their sons and daughters and also compounded by service related trauma. For that, we are all sorry. We owe a debt of gratitude to ADF personnel serving now and who have served in the past.

When the commissioners released their interim report in August, the new Albanese Labor government committed to responding. The report is a culmination of 2,000 submissions, 178 private sessions, and testimony from 208 witnesses. It's confronting reading if you choose to do so. We can't ignore the recommendations. They're 13 recommendations that fall into three categories and three themes: improving the claims processing, the royal commission administration and access to information by loved ones. I am pleased the Minister for Veterans' Affairs responded so strongly in a statement given to the House on 26 September, and we're following through on the commitment we made during the campaign.

One of the recommendations made which we're following through strongly and which has been implemented already was to remove the DVA average staffing level cap. The previous government privatised, outsourced and 'labour-hired' the Department of Veterans' Affairs to death. That was the evidence that came through in the royal commission. That's exactly the evidence that has come through, and that's what the royal commissioners have found with respect to the treatment of the department. Because we're a Labor government that knows the importance of secure work, we have lifted the staffing cap. The Department of Veterans' Affairs was singled out, more than any other department under the Morrison coalition government, for privatisation. Up to 50 per cent of people dealing with frontline claims processing were inexperienced people employed by multinationals through labour hire and outsourcing. That's the evidence that came through Senate inquiry; that's the kind of evidence that came through in this royal commission. The coalition government should hang their heads in shame for the way they treated the Department of Veterans' Affairs, which has had a clear link—that's exactly what Minister Gee said: 'A clear link'—with the tragedies that have been occurring.

We've hit the ground running. We've raised 500 additional staff in the department to reduce the current backlog of claims which blew out to 50,000 claims outstanding. That's 50,000 Australians who have served this country and who are waiting, sometimes for years, to get their claims processed. The royal commission is really important, and I look forward to the final report that's going to be announced in the next year or so. We have made commitments. We've made commitments to give another $15.5 million to support DVA's continuing engagement with the royal commission; there's $233.9 million put forward to engage additional staff—the additional 500 staff which we've already engaged; there's $87 million allocated to modernise IT systems in DVA to improve claim processing; and we've also put forward $9.5 million in developing a pathway for simplification and harmonisation of compensation. It should not be beyond the wit and wisdom of our parliament and the parliamentary draftsmen to harmonise the DRCA, the MRCA and the VEA, and I'm looking forward to seeing that happen. Many veterans are dealing with three pieces of legislation that are too complex to deal with. Veterans advocates around the country do a great job, but they are limited and inhibited by a legislative framework which is far too complex.

I finish on this note: the commitment for the 10 veterans hubs we're undertaking, including one in my electorate, will make a difference to building community and keeping veterans together. We must do everything we can as a parliament, and across the Chamber, to make sure that we get veterans into housing and employment and get them back into the community when they transition to civilian life, We must do everything we can to support those serving in uniform when they are no longer in uniform but in the general community.

Michael McCormack (Riverina, National Party, Shadow Minister for International Development and the Pacific) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As a former veterans' affairs minister and a former Assistant Minister for Defence, I say at the outset one of the words that sometimes seems to be the hardest word to say in this building, and that is: sorry. I am sorry for things that have happened to veterans. I am sorry—and, of course, was sorry, even prior to the royal commission delivering its final recommendations—for anyone who has experienced harm or hardship or sexual assault. To those families who have lost loved ones through veteran suicides: I am sorry. I know that the royal commission is important, and that is why we, in government as a coalition, called a royal commission. I know the tremendous work the former veterans' affairs minister the member for Gippsland did in this space, as have other veterans' affairs ministers too. I particularly mention the member the Gippsland for the work that he did in endeavouring, at all times, to ensure that veterans were looked after. The Department of Veterans' Affairs also sometimes gets a terrible rap, and I know the work that Secretary Liz Cosson and others do to ensure that veterans feel as though there is somebody wrapping their arms around them. They're not always going to get it right. It wouldn't matter what department it was; it wouldn't matter what political party it was; it's not always going to get everything right to everyone's satisfaction. And I know that some veterans choose not to be part of the DVA process, choose not to obtain the help that is available to them.

I am pleased that when we were in government we provided free mental health support to those who've served in uniform, even if they served just one day in uniform. For all those who have served in uniform, that assistance is available. At the outset, I very much urge and encourage those people to take that opportunity up if they feel they need it. I also urge and encourage them, if they should so choose, to contact Lifeline, 13 11 44, or Open Arms, 1800011046. There are other support lines as well, like Beyond Blue, 1300224636. It's 24/7. They've got a website as well, as do the other services. There is the Suicide Call Back Service, 1300659467. Counselling support is also available through the royal commission. To discuss that support, people can email—I appreciate it's a long email address but I will say it anyway, for those who might be reading this on Hansarddvsrc.enquiries@royalcommission.gov.au or they can phone 1800329095. Please take any of those services up if you feel as though you need it.

Today is an important day for Wagga Wagga. It is the final day of the hearings which began on 28 November. It's the eighth public hearing conducted by the royal commission. It follows a hearing in Darwin in October. Already I know that the Wagga Wagga hearings have heard some disturbing stories, some harrowing tales, from people who have bravely, courageously offered their lived experience, such as former Australian Defence Force member Kylie Reynolds. She told some harrowing tales. It must take a lot to dig within and provide those memories of sexual assault, of serious injury and of the hardship and heartache that many ADF people have experienced, particularly when it was at such a young age. Kylie was just 17 when she enlisted with the ADF Army ready reserves in Brisbane back in January 1993. She completed a three-month recruit training stint at Kapooka, and it was there that she celebrated her 18th birthday. When you turn 18 it should be the happiest time of your life. It really should. Her prospects were bright, and she was making great strides in her service. Yet, sadly, she looks back on that service as being one of the worst, most troubling times of her life. She says, 'As a young female private, I was the lowest of the low.' She rose through the ranks to corporal, then sergeant and eventually warrant officer 2 and should have been looking forward to a great career. But sadly that is not the case. Hers is just one of many stories that have been told, and we will hear further similar experiences.

I listened closely to the member for Blair, the previous speaker. I think sometimes all too often we get a bit partisan with these things. I'm not saying every government member does. But the previous government did some good things in this space. We really did. We shouldn't just be mocked and knocked every step of the way, because there were some good things done, in what I say was a bipartisan way. He finished his remarks by talking about the veteran wellbeing centres. I have some news for him, if he's not already aware, about the Wagga wellbeing centre. I know Pro Patria and the Wagga RSL are very much working towards that. Pro Patria already has a facility, a building, an amenity at north Ashmont in my home town of Wagga Wagga. The RSL is very much forward leaning in this space as well, through the efforts of Charlotte Webb and Dave Gardiner, the sub-branch president. And yet the $5 million committed prior to the election has been stripped away; it has been taken from Wagga Wagga. If ever there was a centre deserving, needing—

Gavin Pearce (Braddon, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Health, Aged Care and Indigenous Health Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Hear, hear!

Michael McCormack (Riverina, National Party, Shadow Minister for International Development and the Pacific) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I hear 'hear, hear' from the member for Braddon, who knows Wagga Wagga well having been at Kapooka. If ever there is a centre that needs it, it is Wagga Wagga. It's the only inland regional centre with all three arms of the Defence Force. Since 1939 we've had a Royal Australian Air Force presence. Since 1942 we've been the home of the soldier, that long line of khaki stretching back to World War II. And since 1993 we've had a Navy presence in our town. They're based with the Air Force at Forest Hill. It's an important Navy institution. It has, generally, between 70 and 80 personnel.

Even though we're a long way from the nearest drop of seawater, as I often say, the Navy plays an integral part in Wagga Wagga, and may that long continue. I know the infrastructure spend that I made sure was going to go to Wagga to upgrade and update those bases, particularly the Forest Hill base, was going to secure those services forever, hopefully. They were needed. Some of the buildings were antiquated, particularly at the RAAF base. They're replacing 1950s buildings with state-of-the-art world-class facilities—as they should.

I would urge and encourage people who have a story to tell to the veteran suicide public hearings to do so. There is still time, plenty of time—indeed, public submissions are open until October next year. I know this is going to make such a difference potentially in the future care and support that future governments will provide to our veterans. Already there is plenty of help and support and services available, and I would encourage and implore those people who have worn the uniform and those people who are considering an Army, Air Force or Navy career to avail themselves and find out more about what services are available post their careers.

I would just finish on this note. Just because some have experienced—many have experienced—hardship and heartache in their service, please, if you are considering a career in the armed forces, please pursue that. There is no finer work that you can do for your nation than to serve in our military. Our military needs you; our military supports you and there is care and support for you when you finish your career.

Matt Burnell (Spence, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the member for Riverina for his contribution to this debate in this place today. I rise to take note of the government's response to the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide's interim report. This response was tabled by the Minister for Veterans Affairs and Minister for Defence Personnel back on 26 September. I've been eagerly awaiting the inclusion of this item of business as it provides me with the opportunity to speak in further detail about the interim report and the government's response, particularly towards some of the recommendations made through the interim report.

On that note, I thank the Minister for Veterans Affairs and Minister for Defence Personnel for presenting the government's response to the interim report to the House. It provides a hopeful pathway forward to addressing what can only be described as a national tragedy. I hope to provide the House with some additional context concerning the importance of the interim report and the government's response in relation to my electorate of Spence, and provide further updates concerning our pathway toward building a veterans wellness hub in Spence.

But, first, I am very pleased as to the nature of the debate thus far, not to mention the bipartisan nature on legislation or motions that have been before the House in the 47th Parliament that concern Australia's defence personnel and veterans. It is because of this fact that I do not wish to have my remarks appear to be indecorous when I note for the purpose of providing historical context to the establishment of this royal commission the fact that the former Prime Minister, the member for Cook, credits himself with being responsible for its creation—crediting himself as if he wasn't dragged across figurative hot coals to perform a job that only a Prime Minister can do and establish a royal commission.

Amongst the groups dragging the member for Cook, when Prime Minister, towards the right result were numerous veteran and service groups; members and senators on all sides of politics, some of whom are still here and some of whom are not; and, most sincerely with the cause, family members of former defence personnel who have sadly taken their own lives as they tried to adjust to civilian life. One of the notable individuals who campaigned and pressured the Prime Minister to act was, of course, Julie-Ann Finney, a remarkable individual who, in the face of her son's tragedy, took it upon herself to find a way for others with family who are actively serving or former serving defence personnel not to go through the unbearable pain she had gone through. I note that the Minister for Defence Personnel and Minister for Veterans' Affairs and the member for New England both noted her courage, tenacity and lobbying efforts to force the former Prime Minister's hand in creating this royal commission. I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge her efforts as well.

I note that the many members of the opposition who were around in the 46th Parliament are supportive of this royal commission and veterans issues more broadly, so I do not intend to lump them in with the former leader. Now, moving forward, we can all work to gather to achieve some common goals that the interim report of this royal commission has highlighted.

It goes without saying that losing a member of the ADF during wartime is as much a tragedy as losing a veteran who has ended their own life years after ceasing active service. Many experience variations of post-traumatic stress disorder from what they have seen during their active duty, and others experience compounding difficulties with going back to civilian life. I note with a great deal of concern a recent report released by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, which notes that in veterans and serving ADF members who have served since 1985 ex-serving males are on average 27 per cent more likely to die by suicide than Australian males. Ex-serving males who separate for involuntary medical reasons have higher rates of suicide than males who separated voluntarily. I also note that the figures for women are even higher. There is no circumstance where these figures can be deemed acceptable.

These statistics are only a drop in the bucket of some being collated parallel to the royal commission. These figures on their own are not just utterly upsetting to hear but also a lingering source of national shame until we have taken proper steps to identify solutions and implement them. The Albanese Labor government's response to many of the interim report recommendations tells me that we are making some good first steps. As Australians, we must take proactive steps to safeguard the wellbeing of those who serve and those that have served. It is the least we can do for their service, their answer of the call to duty and their sacrifice.

This issue is one that is dear to me not only due to my service in the reserves—I see many people I served with go through the same difficulties, faced by both defence personnel and veterans, that are outlined in this interim report—but also due to the veteran and defence population within my electorate of Spence. I would be remiss if I did not mention the fact that Spence is home to RAAF Base Edinburgh, a place I've had the privilege of visiting and hope to visit many times in the future. I'd also note that there are, according to the latest available figures, 3,820 Department of Veterans Affairs clients that call my electorate of Spence home. This is the highest number of DVA clients for any South Australian electoral division.

This number is closer to 16,000 when you look to factor in those veterans and their families who are resident in suburbs that are directly adjacent to my electorate of Spence, which borders the divisions of Barker, Gray, Makin and Mayo. Especially now, in the event of the interim report and the government's response to it, we can see the tangible benefits of a comprehensive veterans wellness centre located within the northern suburbs of Adelaide. It is yet another reason why I'm proud to be part of an Albanese government that is committed to building a veteran wellbeing centre within my electorate of Spence. I thank the Minister for Veterans' Affairs and Minister for Defence Personnel for working closely with me on this undertaking, along with the efforts and assistance of the member for Blair prior to my election to this place. I thank you both for seeing the same need as I did for this project and for helping me to make the veterans wellness hub a reality.

Beyond Spence and the wellness hub, there were several recommendations made by the interim report worth discussing, because they would, over time, greatly reduce the anxiety, frustration and isolation that many veterans experience once they have left the ADF. Sadly, this is to do with reforms that improve the Department of Veterans' Affairs and, to an extent, the Department of Defence itself. DVA is, after all, a department that is tasked with providing a different level of support to veterans beyond the equivalent that would be offered by government to someone who wasn't a veteran. But, if you ask a handful of veterans amongst your electorates when you return home after the sitting week, you will hear a very different story. If they themselves are not in what they would often describe as something like trench warfare with DVA, they will certainly know a mate in the community who has had a run-in or two with the agency. Many veterans and their families are left feeling distressed, isolated, powerless and frustrated after many of their dealings with DVA over the years. I do emphasise the word 'years', especially in relation to the backlog of claims made through the various forms of military compensation legislation that is currently churning through our system. This is unacceptable, and it did not require a royal commission in order to tell us that something needed to change.

I commend the bravery of those who have shared their experiences with the royal commission, whether they are serving currently or have served or they are the families of our veterans. It must not have been easy, but a spotlight needed to be shone on this crisis. It saddens me to say that, for too many veterans and defence personnel, this interim report—and, indeed, the royal commission itself—arrived far too late, marking a tragedy that their families will continue to endure. It is a wound to Australia's soul that won't heal until these issues are adequately addressed. We as a nation can do better, and I have no doubt that we have a government in charge now that knows that the job to fix this system for the better will begin long before the eventual release of the royal commission's final report. In fact, it began long before the release of this interim report, too.

With some closing remarks, I would like to acknowledge the service of members in this place. There are 21 of us who have previously served: Senator Davey, the member for Leichardt, Senator Fawcett, the member for Solomon, the member for Canning, the member for Mitchell, the member for New England, the member for Kennedy, Senator Lambie, the member for Hasluck, Senator McLachlan, Senator Molan, the member for Braddon, Senator Reynolds, the member for Fadden, the member for Maribyrnong, the member for Herbert, Senator Whish-Wilson, the member for Clark and the member for Menzies, who is also my co-chair of the Parliamentary Friends of Veterans. Thank you for your service.

Gavin Pearce (Braddon, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Health, Aged Care and Indigenous Health Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I recognise and appreciate the comments made by the previous speaker, the member for Spence. The list of names that he read, which represents the respective electorates, their respective states and the veteran community, is, I think, an impressive list. I think that each and every one of those people on that list that you read, Member for Spence, takes it upon their shoulders to do the right thing, and they genuinely believe, across all sides of the parliament, in their cause and in the betterment of the outcomes for our veteran community, so I thank you.

In relation to the interim findings of the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide, I reflect on not only the contents but also the recommendations. I reflect on a number of things as I go through that document. First, I reflect on the findings and the outcomes—the tangible things that are put in front of government that they can implement in order to rectify the issues highlighted by the royal commission. But in doing so I also reflect on the lived experience and the re-lived trauma of each and every person who gave evidence to that royal commission, including during the royal commission itself. It would have taken them to hell and back. I want to formally acknowledge that in this place and extend the support measures that are so absolutely necessary in these times of such reflection. I want to encourage those who have had to re-live those experiences, or if they know of anyone who has been involved in such evidence and is having difficulty, to reach out to the respective contact numbers that have been provided by the royal commission.

As well as reflecting on the royal commission, I reflect on my service. My service went over two decades, 20 years. The member for Riverina spoke about Wagga Wagga as our recruit training establishment. I spent 8½ years of my life there as a corporal, as a sergeant and as a warrant officer. It was there that I took those young men and women off the bus. Those young men and women had worked up the moral courage and agonised for hours in their own time to finally put their hand up, to go into a recruiting office and to offer to give their life in the service of their country. That, in some cases, was a naive obligation. They didn't know what they didn't know, but I reminded them of that as soon they got to the first Army recruit training centre, and it was there that that transformation took place.

These are some of our best people, some of our finest Australians, some of our most dedicated and service-driven young people. All they want to do is the right thing for their country. Me as an instructor, I had to turn that raw service into a capability, a capability that will seek out and close with an enemy in a foreign country or on Australian soil, that will kill or capture an enemy and then live with that, or put their life in another man's hand and expect him to do the same for them. The question often is posed: Why do soldiers do that? The answer is simple; it is because the person on your left or right would give their life for you. That bond, that transformation, that change of that young person I talked about earlier, the young person who got off the bus, is an incredible change that we cannot undo.

You cannot untrain somebody. You cannot un-see the things that we see in defence. I have served on operational service and I have taken young men and women into active service. The responsibility of rank is that when you as an individual put those soldiers under your command in harm's way and they are harmed, you wear that as an individual. You wear that as a leader. This is not spoken about anywhere in this report, but I want to recognise that today and I want to recognise the fact that, for our leaders in the military, that burden of guilt never goes away. When you stand at a military funeral and you're holding a salute as they lower a casket into the hole, the look of the bearers, the look of the mates, the look of those in the unit never goes away. If I close my eyes now I can see it in my own mind's eye and that will never leave me. I obviously have learnt to live with that but it will not go away.

I don't want the average person in loungerooms across Australia today to think that this interim funding of this royal commission will fix every thing because it won't. It is a start. It puts us on a path; it recognises the fault. In the military we have a simple way of identifying faults and correcting them. We identify the fault, we identify the soldier and we correct the fault then we continue the practice of the operation. That is exactly where we need to get back to here. The point I make, what I'm trying to say, is that all the emotion, all the fluff, all the retrospectivity need to come back to the outcomes. Everything needs to be about outcome-driven exercise.

I fought in the state of Tasmania to have money put into a North West veterans hub. A bloke I served with was a bomb technician. His name's Dr Andrew Clarke. He's helped me with that. He's a general practitioner, and we've set up a wellness centre that treats many of our veterans—and I shouldn't say the word 'treat'. I felt guilty as soon as I said that word. It's not 'treat'. It's 'work with'. It's 'be there for them'. It's not 'treat'. So I take that back, and I correct that. But, in saying that, I think I'm getting the point across: the language that we use is so important. The positivity that we need is so important.

The time for pity parties has gone with this North West veterans hub. We highlight to veterans: 'You need to get off the couch, and you need to do something for yourself, and we're here to support you. We will wrap as much support around you as possible. We will not rest until your problem is fixed, and we will always be there.' And this is what they need. This is what our veteran community needs. They don't need pity. I implore people right across the country: please don't feel sorry for our veterans. You should look up to them, because they've done nothing but the right thing, and along the way they've suffered a few issues that need our support wrapped around them. That's the attitude that I want to have: a positive, progressive and outcome-driven attitude. I've said in this place before that I suffer from the effects of post-traumatic stress disorder. I'm treated. I have a tablet every day for it. I don't say that for pity; I say that to let all veterans know that you can have this thing and you can seek help. Support's there. People wrap their arms around me and help me, and now I'm operating at a reasonably high level here in federal parliament, thanks very much.

But the point I'm making is that you can be whatever you want to. It doesn't preclude you from going on with a normal life. It doesn't stop you from looking after your families. That word 'family', I think, isn't said enough. I don't think we've covered that enough. As we look at the military, it is a big family. It's a tribe, and we're connected. I've talked about that. I've talked about the connection that we have to that big family. But, when you leave that family, that feeling of separation because you've lost your tribe, I think, is the start. I think that our real family unit—our spouse, our children and our wider family—is going to play an important part in the transfer of the veteran from their big military family to their new family, which is civilian life and a way forward. I don't think we concentrate on that enough, and it should be at the centre. It should underpin everything we do as far as support measures are concerned—family-centric treatment for our acutely affected veterans. I want to see a place where we can take the whole family. Those kids need to know why mum or dad feels the way that they do. Those kids are affected by that trauma, and we need to make sure that we wrap our support measures around them as well.

To rehash, I welcome the findings of the royal commission. I've always supported this. It's the only line in the sand that we can draw. But we need to remain firmly fixated on the target, and our target should be outcome driven. I want to thank everybody who's spoken today and everybody who's supported this cause, and I want to thank the brave men and women of our Defence Force and our veteran community.

Matt Thistlethwaite (Kingsford Smith, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm pleased to follow the member for Braddon, and I thank him for his service to our nation and his work to improve the lives of veterans. I was fortunate enough to attend a veterans forum in Burnie in the great state of Tasmania a few weeks ago with the member for Braddon and to see the great work that he's doing in supporting veterans.

Australia has lost more serving and former serving personnel to suicide over the last 20 years than through operations during the same period in Afghanistan and Iraq, and that's a tragic statistic. That's the tragedy behind the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide and the individual stories of Australians who have lost those inner battles—the devastation wrought on families, friends and communities. The tragedy has been compounded by the fact that successive Australian governments have failed those who've served our nation. Governments have also failed families who've carried the critical burden on their own through the pain and suffering that they've experienced. That is why we need help to find a way forward. The royal commission's recommendations will assist in prioritising the necessary and important work ahead to better the lives of defence personnel, veterans and their families.

Recently, the royal commission released its interim report. It contains 13 recommendations to government. The Minister for Veterans' Affairs responded on behalf of the government in the parliament in September. The interim report follows 2,000 submissions, 178 private sessions and testimony from 208 witnesses. It's important to note that the commission's been continuing with its important work, with hearings this week being held in Wagga Wagga.

The interim report's 13 recommendations fall into three key themes: improving the claims process, royal commission administration and access to information by loved ones. The Albanese government has already implemented one of the recommendations—that is, recommendation 5. They've agreed to nine, agreed to one in principle, and noted two others. We agree with the commission's recommendation for urgent and immediate action.

Recommendation 1 seeks to develop a pathway for simplification and harmonisation of veteran compensation and rehabilitation legislation. That process has begun. A taskforce has been established in the Department of Veterans' Affairs to work with government, veterans organisations and the Defence Force to simplify that important legislation.

Recommendation 2 goes to eliminating the claims backlog. The government has agreed to this recommendation. We know there has been a backlog of claims for support through the Department of Veterans' Affairs. Unfortunately, much of that problem was related to the cap on numbers in the Department of Veterans' Affairs that was put in place by the previous government. The new government, the Albanese government, has removed that cap. We're in the process of employing 500 additional staff to DVA. I've been travelling around the country, visiting DVA offices, and the anecdotal evidence that I'm receiving is that that the backlog is starting to come down because DVA now has those additional resources to ensure that veterans get the support they deserve and need.

Recommendation 3 seeks to improve the administration of the claims system. The government has agreed to this recommendation as well. It's clear that veterans and families have not had a good experience. They've not been able to access the support they deserve.

Recommendation 4 suggests that the Department of Veterans' Affairs provide, on a regular basis, advice to government on funding needs. The government has agreed to this recommendation.

Recommendation 5 suggests removing the Department of Veterans' Affairs average staffing level cap. As I mentioned earlier, that cap is now removed. We all know the importance of permanent, secure work for people working in the Australian Public Service, particularly those working in the Department of Veterans' Affairs. In the past, under the previous government, people were employed by labour hire companies to do work contracted to DVA to avoid the staff cap issue. It was a ridiculous situation. It was probably costing the government more money simply to meet an ideological commitment around staff caps in the Public Service. What was happening was that, people were being trained through the labour hire agency on the technology and processes at DVA to deal with claims, and, once they had that Public Service experience, they'd get a job at another government department on a permanent basis. All of that work that was put into them by DVA was lost to another government department. Why wouldn't they? If you have public sector experience and you see a permanent job being offered in another government department, surely you'd take it. If you had a family to feed, you'd take a permanent position. What the former government was doing was counterintuitive. This government is fixing that by removing that staffing cap and putting people on permanent employment.

Recommendation 6 calls for increased protections for people who engage with the royal commission, and the government will take forward legislative reforms to the Royal Commissions Act after wider consulting on the drafting of those amendments. The government will also work with the royal commission to ensure serving and ex-serving ADF members have protections to communicate information to the inquiry without breaching general secrecy offences in the Criminal Code.

Recommendations 9 to 13 all relate to improving the release of information by Defence and DVA to family about a deceased family member, and the government agrees to those important recommendations. We note that communication between Defence and DVA has impacted families and left a lot to be desired, and that's been raised by many families in their evidence to the royal commission. Work on that has already begun.

I want to thank the royal commissioners—Nick Kaldas, Hon. James Douglas and Dr Peggy Brown—for their work in producing the interim report, and their ongoing work with the royal commission. I also want to thank those who have contributed to the inquiry. Your courage, your bravery in sharing your experience is deeply appreciated. And we are, of course, committed to the task of saving lives and ensuring that we have a better future for defence and veterans' communities.

The government called for the royal commission when in opposition, and after years of reports of too many deaths and the lives of too many being made worse off because of endless discussions. It's time to get on with it. Indeed the latest report, released last month, into the rate of suicide amongst current and former serving ADF personnel reaffirms that suicide prevention must be a matter of national priority. The report Serving and ex-serving Australian Defence Force members who have served since 1985: suicide monitoring prepared by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare is the fifth annual suicide monitoring report commissioned by DVA. The latest report found that 1,600 ADF members and veterans with service after 1985 died by suicide between 1997 and 2020. It includes an additional 327 deaths by suicide since last year's report, largely due to an expanded study period. That rate is too many. We all know we need to get that down. That is why we welcome the recommendations of the royal commission. We look forward to the final report in 2024, but the government are wasting no time. We're getting on with the job of those interim recommendations and providing DVA, ESOs and other organisations with the support they need to support those that do deserve it the most—our serving ADF personnel, veterans and their families.

Keith Wolahan (Menzies, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I begin by thanking the members who have spoken before me, in particular the member for Spence and his very generous acknowledgement of all the other veterans in the parliament. I didn't realise it was 21. You've done your homework, so thank you for that. And the also the member of Braddon, who spoke earlier. A lot of us will come in here with talking points, but sometimes the best contributions are straight from the heart, and he delivered it straight from the heart. I'm not Jewish, but a rabbi spoke to me recently when I was at a ceremony for an award that is given in the name of a Jewish Australian soldier who died. There's an award given to Jewish schools in his name. He said, 'If you speak from the heart, you'll connect to the heart.' I often think about him. We see those moments in the chamber and in other places, there's something about that connection that connects us as humans.

I am a veteran. It's not a badge I wear too often or even know what it means. When I read the interim report, and I've read it twice, a lot of it's not familiar to me because we all have different experiences. I was very fortunate. Unlike the member for Braddon, I haven't carried burdens from there, and that's often just the accident of the way your tours went and the circumstances of life. Another factor is I was also fortunate that I didn't start off as a regular soldier, like he did and many others did. I started off, like the member for Spence did, as a reservist. It's not for me to replace the findings of the royal commission, but one of the advantages of starting as a reservist and then going full time and then back to reserve is that I have a foot in both worlds. You go from conflict and combat overseas to putting the bins out very quickly. It's something that feels normal to us, but it's probably not normal to someone who signs up as an 18-year-old or 19-year-old and has this intense experience for many years, and then they're putting the bins out and getting yelled at by their partner, and the bills are coming in, and there are other pressures on life. That's really hard.

I had a taste of that on my second tour of Afghanistan when I came back. I was a platoon commander. We were in quite heavy contact in Kandahar province on a Thursday and we came back that night. On a Friday I was on a plane, from Tarin Kowt to Kandahar, three hours later from Kandahar to Al Minhad, six hours later to Darwin, however many hours it takes to Sydney and then to Melbourne. And each time you went to an airport, you lost more of your friends as they went to their own places. I went from a platoon of 30 and all the support staff—there were 80 of us outside the wire—to, I remember, walking out through that gate at Melbourne airport on my own.

I was so excited to see my wife and my then-two-year-old boy, and my wife was pregnant with our daughter, but I had this sense of loss that I went from this family of eight, as the member for Braddon spoke about, to my core family. I thought he said it beautifully: it is about family, and it's about the transition from one family to the other. I had that sense of grief.

Many others will know this who've been to the bar. I went to the bar readers' course on the following Monday. I had one world that had become normal to me and that I had a sense of comfort about, and then I went to another world that felt abnormal to me. Your fear becomes relative. My fear and my heart rate went up when we were doing practice moots and you had judges asking questions. I had to go lie down from it.

The human condition is that we're more resilient than we think, and we are a product of our experience, so something that's quite abnormal becomes normal very quickly. That's what we do to 18-year-olds or 19-year-olds. We take them from their families—they're just kids—and we shape them into soldiers and officers who are ready to do extraordinary things. To turn your back to gunfire because it might be coming from this direction, knowing the person next to you has your back—there's nothing like that. There is nothing like that.

I reflect on the experience of many others that I served with. I won't name him, but there's a very good friend of mine who had some horrible experiences overseas. He's a wonderful person, but on his tour there were civilian casualties—babies and children were killed—from decisions that he made, and he ultimately had a charge placed against him of negligence, which was the first time that was brought in a combat scenario. I was his barrister, defending him. It was where those two worlds crossed in a way that I didn't expect. The charges were ultimately dismissed, but I often reflect on: how do you go on, when you were the person who made the decision and had to carry those dead children out and then your country tells you, 'I think you're criminally liable for that,' and then you are acquitted? Yet he goes to work every day as a mechanic, because he doesn't want people to pity him or feel sorry for him.

Again, the member for Braddon summarised that so well. We often think of the cliche of the broken veteran, and so many are, and we've got to look after them, but there are a lot that just want to get on with life, even in the worst of circumstances. I often think of him when people say, 'You're busy today—you've worked hard as an MP.' I think, 'Well, I don't get up at 5 am and look up at oily cars dripping down in my face and try to solve problems like that.' He does it six days a week, and he's a wonderful person and served his country with distinction.

There were some really good recommendations in this report, and it's driven by the evidence that has been given by veterans who have had a personal experience, many similar to that and many for whom it's more the transition from that life of service and purpose to a normal life, which has its own challenges. I particularly like the recommendations about making the process simpler. No-one likes filling in forms. No-one likes red tape. That is supposed to be an article of faith of our party, and I'm really pleased to see that's a recommendation that the government is supporting. Of course we should make this process of getting help simpler.

In the final few minutes, I want to address some of the recommendations that it seems the government hasn't accepted and, again, we support you on that. They were the recommendations around parliamentary and public interest immunity. The Attorney-General said in an interview at the Press Club that he was baffled by those recommendations, and I was too. Our veterans put their lives on the line not only to fight for their friends, their family and their country but also for some of the great traditions of our democracy and the rule of law. Parliamentary privilege and public interest immunity, while they can be abused, are key institutions of our democracy and the rule of law. The commission, with respect, over-reached in asking for royal commissions to able to abrogate parliamentary privilege and public interest immunity.

The parliament has just signed off on an anticorruption commission. We welcomed that and supported that. But that commission will have authority over all of our ADF members, and there are enormous powers given to that commission. It may be in the future, if someone abuses that process, that they can come here and come to their member and get their voices heard. Parliamentary privilege is very important to our job. It should never be abrogated, so it wouldn't be in the interests of veterans or anyone to do that. Again, I commend the government for holding firm on that. It is very to say, when you get royal commission recommendations, 'We will implement them all.' That's very easy. But, in the end, they are recommendations, and the responsibility is on all of us to do the right thing by veterans, by our communities and by our democracy. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this and thank you again to the members of Spence, Braddon and everyone else who spoke in this debate.

Andrew Wallace (Fisher, Liberal National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I feel a bit like a proud dad, even though the member for Menzies is not my son; although, he is probably young enough to be my son. It reminds me of the time post World War II when this place had substantial numbers of members who were veterans of World War II. We all look back on history with hindsight vision but I want to say that, by and large, with some exceptions—which I will not name so as not to embarrass them—the debate on this motion has been exemplary. It gives me a scintilla of hope that in this place we can reach across the aisle and work together for the betterment of this country.

They were outstanding speeches from the members for Spence, Menzies and Braddon. I can't match them and will not pretend to. I have never served in uniform. I have not experienced what you great gentlemen have and I will not even pretend to. What Australians should take some comfort from is that members from across the political divide in this place, particularly those members who have served—I'm not saying exclusively by any stretch—that it gives me great hope that that spirit of service you employed while you were in uniform, you will carry that through into your service into this place. I'm particularly referring to a members for Menzies and Spence because they are newbies in this place and, hopefully, my alerting them to these issues will go some way to warding off the shards of partisanship which will no doubt be instilled upon them in this place if they are here long enough. But it's those sort of contributions that you've just made that make this country a better place. And it's those sorts of contributions which will no doubt, hopefully, lead to a better system for our veterans. I've been sitting there listening dutifully to these great contributions, by and large, with some exceptions which I won't mention as I don't want to embarrass those speakers. We need to do better for our veterans. We have to do better for our veterans. The member for Braddon's just entered the chamber—I've given you a bit of a rap, but don't get a swelled head, Member for Braddon!

This country, led by governments across the political divide, has let our veterans down. I want to say at the outset, at the risk of perpetuating the myth—and it is a myth—that veterans are all broken people, that it is not true. I want to send a message out there to employers that the best thing you can do today is employ a veteran. Only a small number of veterans, who have served the country with great distinction, have trouble transitioning to the point that they are having great difficulty in transitioning to civilian life. If you want an example of the character of the individual that the ADF turns out, just look in this place. Look no further. If you want an outstanding individual with loyalty, smarts and resourcefulness working for you, look no further than an ADF veteran.

On those ADF veterans who are experiencing problems in transitioning, the member for Braddon spoke so eloquently about that sense of tribe that is lost when they leave the ADF. I have grown to have a much greater awareness of that loss and that grieving. The member for Menzies spoke about that so well too. In just the smallest concept of the idea, I remember sitting at AMAB with all of the veterans that were leaving and we got a briefing from the CO. He was talking about how they would go back to their families and how their families were not going to understand what they had just experienced over the last six or nine months or so. I remember flying back home. I was in a coffee shop in Mooloolaba and I heard a couple at the table next to me complaining about the temperature of their coffee. I didn't say anything, but I just thought, 'You know what? It's really not a big issue.'

We have had men and women serving this country for many, many years, putting themselves in harm's way. I think that we, as civilians who have never served, don't understand. That 10 days that I experienced with the ADF over there just gave me a glimmer of an experience of what you guys face when you come home. My hat's off to you. My hat's off to all men and women who have served, whether they've deployed or not. If they make that decision to go and join the Army, the Air Force or the Navy, they make the decision to one day perhaps put themselves in harm's way. The very least this country can do is to look after them and to look after their families. We have failed as politicians in the past. That is in the past. I want to thank the commissioners—Commissioner Kaldas, Commissioner Douglas and Commissioner Brown—for the work that they're doing. It is incredibly important work. That work will go on for another 18 months or so, but when that final report is handed down, that's when we as a parliament need to knuckle down and really examine that final report and provide the support to the veterans that have served us so well. I look forward to the report. I look forward to working with those opposite. This issue, perhaps like no other issue, is not an issue for partisan politics. This issue is about how we as politicians have been given a great responsibility to be in this place. We have a responsibility to our veterans.

I was listening to the radio in the gym this morning, and they read an excerpt of the Ukrainian President's maiden speech at his inauguration. He said: 'I want you to go and take those photos of the previous president down. Don't replace them with my photo; replace them with the photos of your children, and then, every decision you make, look at the photos of your children. Look them in the eyes and say, "How can I make this a better place?"' That's what we should be doing in this place.

Debate adjourned.