Sharon Claydon (Newcastle, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Government Services. What is the Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme revealing about the previous government's awareness of faults in their scheme, and how has the government changed its approach?

Bill Shorten (Maribyrnong, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the member for Newcastle for her question. The illegal robodebt scheme was a shocking piece of public administration, and anyone who tries to say otherwise is in denial about the consequences. At the heart of the royal commission, you are running a protection racket.

Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Manager of Opposition Business on a point of order.

Paul Fletcher (Bradfield, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Government Services and the Digital Economy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, I just want to refer you to the ruling that you gave last week where you said:

… my approach has been to allow evidence to the commission which has been publicly reported … But what I am less comfortable with is putting a construction on the evidence or the drawing of conclusions about the conduct of individuals who are parties to the proceedings.

The minister did this repeatedly yesterday. He's already started doing it again today, only 18 seconds in, and I would urge you to remind the minister of the ruling that you have appropriately made.

Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have made six rulings from 7 November to yesterday, and I remind the minister that any statements by the minister are constrained to those matters already raised in the public domain. I remind him and all members that statements made in reliance on the evidence provided should not appear to reach a concluded view. I want to hear the answer to the question but with that in mind.

Bill Shorten (Maribyrnong, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thanks, Mr Speaker. A key witness has emerged in the royal commission to help explain how an unlawful scheme can run for 4½ years without it being publicly identified as unlawful by ministers. This witness I refer to is Professor Terry Carney. He's an emeritus professor. He's taught thousands of law students, from Sydney university to Monash University. He served on the AAT and its predecessor bodies for four decades. He's identified 210 cases that were decided by the AAT over three years on questions of lawfulness. All were in favour of the applicant, not the Commonwealth. He decided five of them himself. So he's reviewed the whole list and found 210. He ruled on five of them himself. He's gone to the heart of the explanation for how, in an unlawful scheme run by ministers, they did not know about it. How was it 'see no evil, hear no evil'? How was it plausibly deniable? How did they say, 'We didn't know'? What he said is that when governments lose cases on the law—and this goes for all governments of all persuasions across our time—they either choose to act on the decision or choose to appeal it, but neither happened in 210 cases. They did nothing. One case, maybe, slipped under the radar—or two cases or three cases—but it really strains credulity that you can have 210 cases over three years—'Nothing to see here, Your Honour.'

Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! I'm going to ask the minister to return to the question and not to give a concluded view while the royal commission is underway.

Bill Shorten (Maribyrnong, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is a matter of fact that Professor Carney looked at 210 cases and the then government didn't do anything. They literally did nothing. They didn't question the law that they were operating under.

Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The Manager of Opposition Business will resume his seat. The minister has one more chance. I want him to answer the question, which was about—

The minister for skills is on a warning. The question was about the royal commission revealing faults in the robodebt scheme and what the government has changed in that approach. I remind the minister for the final time not to give a concluded view, otherwise I will sit him down. I return him to the question.

Bill Shorten (Maribyrnong, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I won't give a concluded view—certainly not. I'm just stating the facts: 210 cases, nothing happened. The problem is that we see this pattern in the evidence emerging. Oh sorry; one thing happened: Professor Carney didn't get renewed in his position in 2017. So we've got a missing million-dollar report, shelved. We've got the Masterton legal opinion, never revealed. On 140 occasions, coalition ministers said, 'I don't recall.' You don't have to draw a concluded view yet, but we know where the evidence is going.