Joanne Ryan (Lalor, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That this House:

(1) acknowledges that the Government is making sure that Australians can continue to pay with cash for essential items if they want to, while also ensuring an orderly transition to phasing out cheques;

(2) notes the Government's plan will:

(a) mandate that businesses must accept cash when selling essential items, with appropriate exemptions for small businesses; and

(b) ensure that cash can be used for essential purchases, such as groceries and fuel, so that those who rely on cash will not be left behind; and

(3) welcomes the Government's acknowledgement that while Australians are increasingly using digital payment methods, there is an ongoing place for cash in our society.

The motion this morning is about the House acknowledging that the Albanese government is making sure that Australians can continue to pay with cash for essential items if they want to while also ensuring an orderly transition to the phasing out of cheques. Note that the government's plan will mandate that businesses must accept cash when selling essential items, with appropriate exemptions for small businesses, and ensure that cash can be used for essential purchases such as groceries and fuel so that those who rely on cash will not be left behind.

As the member for Lalor, I welcome our action on this. We're acting because of what we know. We know that around 1.5 million adult Australians rely on cash to make more than 80 per cent of in-person payments. We also know the number of businesses refusing to accept cash is growing as cash use in Australia declines. Some of that decline is incremental; RBA data from 2022 shows that up to 94 per cent of businesses reported accepting cash for payments, and that's a decline from 99 per cent of businesses just prior to the COVID pandemic. That feels like a small number, but it translates into millions of Australians feeling that, given our economy and the way we use money, they're being left behind in the process. The RBA data also shows that around half of Australia's businesses plan to move away from cash payments in the near future. All of this means that we as members of parliament can all see that this is going to make some Australians very nervous, particularly where they are accustomed to using cash and they have faith in a system that they've known.

We know that the demography here is that older Australians are those more likely to be concerned about this and less likely to have moved into non-cash arrangements in their personal lives. In my electorate there are 17,000 pensioners, if you look at those in that older category, and I believe that they deserve the right to depend on cash. The Albanese Labor government will ensure that no-one is left to fall through the cracks, implementing action to ensure that people can use cash for their purchases, particularly for essential purposes.

We know there's a place to cash in our society, and we can't deny older Australians this right. The announcement has been well received by both community groups and businesses as well as by individuals who simply prefer using cash in their transactions. Whether it's at the supermarket checkout or the local petrol station, when it comes down to the essentials, Australians will have the comfort of knowing they can pay in cash. This is incredibly important. We're doing this work to ensure that, for people in low-income or disadvantaged communities, who often face barriers to accessing digital banking, cash is available for them and available for use. This also allows those without smartphones or reliable internet access or bank accounts to purchase essentials.

If a storm hits, if we cut the power off, if the power gets cut off, if a bushfire breaks out, if we have to force families to evacuate or if telecommunication lines fail, it can leave people without access to banks. Part of this is how we ensure that those people can still access the essentials they need. We know that in recent years there have been two ways we can do this. In some instances, cash becomes primary; in other instances we actually need the capacity for government to pay into people's accounts electronically to ensure that they can do these things.

In a world where we're potentially in transition, I think it's critical that we continue to ensure that members of our community can conduct their business in cash. Currently, there's not a legal requirement for businesses to do that. We're going to work through a consultation process, get the settings right and bring this before the House as soon as is practical to ensure that businesses have clarity about the future but also that we're looking after those people in our communities who want to use cash for their essentials. They deserve to be able to use cash for their essentials and should be able to rely on a government to make sure that's possible in the future.

Terry Young (Longman, Liberal National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the motion seconded?

Peter Khalil (Wills, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I second the motion and reserve my right to speak.

Pat Conaghan (Cowper, National Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Social Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm pleased to rise on this motion about retaining cash. I thank the member for Lalor for moving it because I think it's very important. The member made a very good point in her speech: the people who are most concerned about this are older Australians. They have grown up dealing with cash. It's been easy and reliable. What is not easy and reliable for many of them is technology. They don't have the iPhone that they tap on and they're not necessarily across the internet or on NetBank or some other application.

I get emails on this every single day. When I walk through the streets or, as I was on the weekend, at the Dorrigo Show, people raise this issue saying, 'Pat, we've got to make sure that we keep cash.' It's that fear factor for older Australians. Over 30 per cent of my electorate are over the age of 65. It is time we had that conversation and that we legislate that cash must be able to be used for essential items. I understand why you can't use cash to go and buy a brand-new Mercedes—because the first thing you think about is organised crime—but for essential items there's a very good reason behind using it. I'll give you three examples.

Firstly, I went to Coles recently and there had been a blackout. In that shopping centre, they have two ATMs. The ATMs didn't work because there was no electricity. The Coles scanners didn't work and there was a sign out the front saying, 'We accept cash only.' I didn't have any cash on me, so I got back in the car and went home. These things are going to happen; you're going to have weather events. In the horrible floods that we saw, everything went down and general supermarkets were saying, 'We only accept cash,' but you couldn't get the cash out. You couldn't use cash unless you had some at home. You have to have a backup plan.

I am really concerned about the banks. I say it all the time—I don't mean the people who work in the banks; I'm talking about the banking infrastructure or corporation itself—they are not our friends. I wish they'd stop trying to pretend they are our friends. They are money-making corporations and they will do what is necessary to increase their fees for their shareholders. Good on you, if you've got bank shareholdings in a self-managed super fund—that's great. But we need to look after the little people.

A recent example is of a pensioner in my electorate who went in with $160 in cash and wanted to deposit it over the counter. They wouldn't take it because of anti-money laundering legislation. This is a little old lady. She didn't look like me, with a handlebar moustache: a Chopper Read lookalike for Movember. They wouldn't take it, yet they said to her, 'There's a machine out the front that you put your cash in and put your card in, and that'll transfer it into your bank account.' She didn't know how. I made the point that these people behind the counters might find that they're going to lose their jobs because of automation. What that person should have done was get up, walk around the counter and say, 'Here you go; I'll show you how to do it.' The concept that we are going to lose cash in the future is beyond the pale. We have to ensure that we have cash in our society, as a backup, for essential services only, and to ensure that our older Australians are able to rely on that system that they have known for many, many years.

I'll make the final point in relation to anti-money-laundering. The concept that drug dealers and crime agencies deal only in cash is of the past. They're dealing in cryptocurrency now. So, the argument that we've got to get rid of cash to stop this is a falsehood. We have to look after our Australian citizens.

Sally Sitou (Reid, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm really pleased to be able to speak on this motion regarding the use of cash, because one of the things that I heard very loudly and clearly from the residents of Five Dock when I doorknocked them about a year ago was how disappointed they were that the Commonwealth Bank branch in Five Dock had been closed. They were disappointed that they weren't going to be able to get their banking services and weren't going to be able to get access to cash through ATMs, and there was real concern in the community. At the time, I wrote to the Commonwealth Bank and conveyed the concerns of the residents. Unfortunately, the bank said they would not be reinstating the branch but that many of the services were going to be available through Australia Post. I think this is part of steps the Commonwealth Bank is taking to close down some of these branches, which I think is really disappointing.

One of the things they failed to do, however, was to provide an ATM in the local community that could service people who need to get access to cash. After much campaigning from the local community, we recently were able to get an ATM reinstated in Five Dock. I thought at the time that it was going to be well received, but I didn't realise how well received. Again, I went gone doorknocking in Five Dock, and I happened to doorknock the friendliest street in Five Dock. All the residents were out on Tony's porch on the day that I went, chatting to each other. One of the things raised was the fact that an ATM had been reinstated in Five Dock. Tony, who is in his late 80s, was particularly keen, because he had become reliant on his wonderful neighbour, Jayten, in his 30s, to help him with online banking and was having to do much of the payments online. But what Tony really wanted to be able to do was access cash. So, I was really happy to meet with these residents and celebrate the reinstatement of the ATM in Five Dock.

I think that small story about the residents of Five Dock indicates how important cash is for many people in our community. Whilst of course we are moving to more digital payments and online purchasing, for many in the community cash is still critical for their purchases of essential items. So I'm very pleased that the government has now said that they will be mandating cash for essential items while making sure there are appropriate exemptions for small businesses. It is key that people like Tony and his mates in Five Dock can still purchase things with cash, especially essential items. And as we move towards more online and digital payment systems, one of the things that is really important is to ensure that there is a mechanism for people to pay for things without it attracting a fee.

I'm really pleased to be able to join my colleague Jerome Laxale, the member for Bennelong, in pushing a campaign to ensure that there is some form of payment—digital and online—that does not attract a fee. We're not talking about a couple of cents on your coffee in the morning; we are talking about extra dollars when you go to pay for your car registration or to buy a laptop for the kids. It adds up. These fees add up. There has to be some form of payment that does not attract a fee.

I'm pleased that the RBA is doing an inquiry into these payments to see whether or not there needs to be a fee-free, digital and online payment, and I know that the government has said that if the RBA are willing to go down this path, we would also be supporting that with legislation. This is important reform that is happening, because we need to be able to pay for things without there being a fee or being really hard to do so by paying for it with cash. Added to that, there is some reform that's happening within the New South Wales government to ensure that renters who have to pay their rent through an online mechanism are also not forced to pay an additional fee on top of that. This is a really sensible step. It's about ensuring that cash remains in our economy and that there are better and easier forms of payment.

Michael McCormack (Riverina, National Party, Shadow Minister for International Development and the Pacific) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Let me acknowledge the presence in the chamber of the erstwhile member for Kennedy, who is about to deliver his 977th speech to this parliament—on this occasion about the importance of cash—and acknowledge his 50 years of parliamentary service, including since 1993 as the member for Kennedy. I'd like to thank him for what he has done not just for the people of Kennedy but, indeed, for this nation. Thank you, Bob.

This legislation, this bill, this debate, this motion, is important, because people should be able to pay for things with cash. For many people, whatever legislation we put before the House, as far as finance and treasury laws et cetera are concerned, cash will always be king. It's of great concern to regional communities that we have so many regional bank closures. We need branches to stay open. We need to have the ability to be able to use cash. I'm sure the member for Kennedy agrees with that premise.

I had a woman in my electorate write to me the other day, concerned about the phasing out of cheques, because people like to hang onto traditional norms of payment. A little known fact is that you can go to the supermarket and pay for your groceries with stamps should that be your desire. They are legal tender, but you could imagine the looks you would get if you tried that on.

We heard earlier from the member for Cowper about the woman in his electorate, who just wanted to cash in $160 worth of cash, to be able to get that back, and the difficulty she had doing just that. Businesspeople these days have had a number of bank closures, particularly in a community such as Junee, in my electorate, which is 42 kilometres from Wagga Wagga, as have Coolamon, Cootamundra, Cowra, Forbes, Grenfell, Lockhart, Parkes, Temora, Wagga Wagga and West Wyalong. It sounds like a line out of the song 'I've Been Everywhere'. Unfortunately it's, 'I've seen banking closures everywhere, man'. It does have an impact on businesses that accept cash. All businesses should accept cash. It's just not right that businesses in Australia do not. I appreciate that some businesses have got their own systems, but they should all accept cash.

I appreciated that the Senate inquiry into bank closures in regional Australia held a hearing at Junee on 21 September 2023. Junee has suffered from several bank closures in recent years, including having four banks once upon a time and probably even more, way back in the day. But three of those four banks, in more modern times, have now closed. Only the Commonwealth Bank remains. It was important for the inquiry to hear the concerns of local residents, particularly the then-mayor, Neil Smith. I know the current mayor, Bob Callow, shares the same concerns.

The Commonwealth Bank, at least, has put its plan to close the branch on hold and committed to maintaining all of its regional branches in Australia until the end of 2026. I say that's good and not before time. Many of these banks have done very nicely, thank you very much, out of country people—particularly out of our farmers, who've had big holdings. The banks have had the ability to use that money on the international monetary exchange and have been able to lend to customers and do all their banking services on the back of regional Australia providing the confidence and investment in those banks. Then, when the foot traffic suddenly isn't what it used to be, all of a sudden the banks say: 'Well, hang on a minute. Why do we need to keep that branch open?' Well, not everybody has an iPhone, believe it or not. Not everybody wants to do their banking on an iPhone, on a laptop, on an iPad or on a computer. Some people like to use cash. Some people like to go into bank branches. And it's incumbent upon these bank branches, which have done very nicely—thank you very much—out of regional Australia, to keep those branches open.

I'm pleased that that Senate inquiry heard the evidence. I'm pleased that the Commonwealth Bank has got a stay of execution on some of their bank closures. I would urge and encourage banks to remain open in country Australia. I would urge and encourage the government to do everything it can to make sure that Australians can continue to pay with cash for essential items if they want to, as this motion says, while also ensuring an orderly transition to phase out cheques. Well, hang on a minute. We still need cheques in Australia. It's important. That's one part of this item that I do not agree with. Cash does need to remain in service for as long as we care to think about it.

Steve Georganas (Adelaide, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise to speak in support of this motion. It is a very important motion and has been a long time coming. We just heard the member for Riverina and previously the good member for northern Queensland talk about the importance of cash. It is important. Many people still use cash. Many of us are fine. We are fairly IT savvy and can do things quite easily on the computer, transfer money and pay bills et cetera, but the majority of Australians, especially the elderly and pensioners, still rely on cash. It is important that we have cash within our society, and it's important that people have access to cash to be able to go in and pay cash, as is their right, if they feel like it.

I think banks, for a number of years now, have been continuously making it harder and harder to either access cash, accept cash or pay with cash. They do so because it means less staff counting money and being tellers in branches, which therefore reduces their costs. If you have a look at the profits they make, we all know that they make billions and billions of dollars. Rightly so. They are businesses; they've got shareholders. But, at the same time, they have a responsibility to our society, they have a responsibility to our pensioners and they have a responsibility to people who perhaps, for whatever reason, don't have a smart phone or just want the right to pay in cash.

We've seen branches close. We've seen ATMs pulled out of walls, making them harder to find. My own bank, where I live, has closed three branches in the last 18 months. I'm finding it harder, when I actually have to go in to physically do something, to find a branch to go in and talk to.

The other day, I decided to go to the head office in King William Street in Adelaide, because I thought surely someone there would be able to assist with this issue that I had. I was told they couldn't, because they didn't have any tellers—just desks and service officers. It gives you an example of where banks are trying to take us and what the public wants.

Recently, I was contacted by a constituent of mine, Mary, whom I wrote to the Treasurer on behalf of to tell him about the importance of cash. I'm pleased that he has listened and is going down this track. Mary, who has a Bakers Delight in one of the biggest shopping centres in South Australia, informed me she deals with a lot of cash; people come in and buy a coffee and a sandwich, and a lot of pensioners use her coffee shop. Recently, she went to the bank to deposit the takings of the day and to take out the cash flow for the next day and was told she could not have any cash flow, because they have stopped that service.

She then had to ask around at the other banks within the same shopping centre, who all said: 'Yes, we'll give you cash, but you're not a client of this particular bank. You have to sign up with us.' You can imagine the rigmarole that would go with taking all her mortgages, all her payments and everything to a new bank. She then went back to her branch in the shopping centre and was informed there was a particular branch of the same bank seven kilometres away.

She now has to make that trip seven kilometres every day, back and forth, to access cash that she needs. It's not a luxury; it is vital to her business to be able to give out change. She was recently informed that that service stopped at well at this other shopping centre that she travels to, so she is now looking around to see where else she can access cash for her business, for the people that pay cash and need change. You can see how important it is.

Coincidentally, this morning, one of my staffers took his son and a friend of that son to a concert at the entertainment centre. They went to line up to get food during the concert and were told that only cards would be accepted—not cash. This kid was lucky that he was with a family friend who paid for it, and then they gave him the money. This was a young kid who turned up with cash from his parents to buy something to eat at this concert and was told, 'We can't accept it.' That's not on. We need to ensure that cash is available and remains as part of our society, and people should have a choice. We all have a choice. If you want to do it electronically, you can; if you want to pay cash, you can. Sure, doing it electronically makes our lives simpler in many cases, but the reality is that banks are shying away from their responsibilities to service the Australian public and to ensure they offer banking services.

Bob Katter (Kennedy, Katter's Australian Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This issue was touched off by an altercation I had with the cafeteria in Parliament House: I produced cash, and the lady said, 'We don't take cash; I'm sorry.' I said, 'You have to take cash, because it's legal tender.' When the original legislation was introduced providing for legal tender and for the Australian printery to be able to print money, the legislation was really very clear-cut that it was to be legal tender. That meant that you had a debt because you ordered an ice cream and they gave you the ice cream, and they had to take the money that the government produced for that purpose. For the banks to arrogate that power to themselves and take it off the Australian people is absolutely outrageous. I was reading the Qantas lounge, and I recommend that every person in this parliament read it and see how much powerful people can manipulate and misuse power for their benefit and the detriment of the public. It most certainly has occurred in the case of the banks.

Australia had the worst depression of any country on earth; I'm not going to go into all the figures. Germany went to 32 per cent unemployment. We went to 32 per cent unemployment and stayed there because some imbecile decided the government shouldn't produce money. You'd have a depression, but there was already a depression, and it was made infinitely worse by the government not producing money. I don't want to get too complicated with economics here, but it is very simple. The honourable members on my right and on my left have given myriad cases where it's required you take cash, but let me give you two small cases.

The Quamby races attract a couple thousand people. Some glitch in the system meant they had no internet service. How can you have a rodeo with 2,000 people to feed and not have made a provision for taking cash? A wonderful day was completely wrecked. Infinitely more importantly, if the bank is giving you great trouble, you are able to withdraw the cash and get away before they come after you with an axe. But infinitely more important than that: don't you realise that, if you don't have cash, you'll have to get permission off the bank to buy a loaf of bread?

All the speakers emphasise elderly people wanting to use cash. It's funny, but you get a lot of young people on the internet and coming up—they thump me on the arm—saying 'Cash, brother, cash!' Young people understand the necessity to have cash. The hide of powerful people in society saying: 'No! I will have control of what you spend your money on! I am the banks!' Well, look at your record in Australia, banks! It's been absolutely appalling: the GFC, the Great Depression, a hundred examples I could give you. But it is very simple: if there's no cash then you have to get permission off the banks to buy a loaf of bread. Think about that.

So we applaud the government for moving on this. Very seldom do I see a government do this after we pull a little stunt—well, we didn't pull a little stunt; I just wanted to pay by cash—and I pay great tribute to Milton Dick, who found out about the altercation and confrontation, came racing down and put his foot down very unequivocally: 'You will take cash!' (Time expired)

Zoe McKenzie (Flinders, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The time allotted for this debate has expired. The debate is adjourned and resumption of the debate will be made an order of the day for the next sitting.