Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Hansard source

I have been asked for the names of people on the board who have expertise. Drew Clarke is a longstanding secretary of the department of energy. I believe he would qualify as a person of high standing and pre-eminent expertise in all fields of energy, including renewable energy. The Senate has already acknowledged John Ryan. Mary O’Kane, who has been chief scientist for New South Wales and whom I appointed to undertake the review of the CRC program, is a person with widespread experience in these fields as well.

So, Senator Milne, once again, the sort of sanctimonious, holier-than-thou approach that you have taken here is I think misplaced. I think there has been longstanding acknowledgement that the ‘mickey mouse’ reference goes to the fact that the overwhelming majority of senators will form a position on a matter and the division itself will be carried overwhelmingly. It is a term that has been used here for many decades.

The fact remains that if you are about wasting time and trying to frustrate a program then you can move a lot of divisions. There are many devices under the standing orders to prevent the consideration of government legislation or legislation from another party, if you choose. One of the facts of life that we all have to face is that there are occasions when we are going to put a position in this chamber and lose. There are more times than I care to recall when we simply said, ‘This is our position; we know it does not have majority support in this chamber,’ and we have had the position determined on the voices. There is no more rectitude in a position being determined by a division rather than on the voices in terms of the standing orders—none whatsoever.

I really do not appreciate being lectured on the sanctity of your position, Senator Milne—on your virtue versus that of others in the chamber. It is often the case that the positions of minorities become the positions of majorities over time. That is a well-known fact. It is often the case that we vote for positions in this chamber which are rejected and, subsequently, the minority position in the chamber is proved to be right. It is not a position that is confined to your end of the chamber. It is equally the case that people who masquerade as great innovators and pioneers of new ideas are often highly conservative defenders of the status quo. It is often the case that the Greens present themselves in a way that is contradicted by their actions, and that is something that you have done on many issues in regard to environmental politics. Senator, I guess that is a point on which you and I will never agree. I urge the Senate to vote on these amendments.