Scott Ludlam (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Hansard source

I thank the minister for providing answers to those questions—or an answer to the first, at least, if not the second. If I have misled the minister or if he has misconstrued the comment that I made, can I make it clear that the civil society groups, including principally the Cluster Munition Coalition, are not saying that we would be better off without the convention. I apologise if that was the impression that I gave. They are strongly of the view that we are better off without Australia as a party under the formulation that has been drafted into this bill.

One of the reasons they believe that—I suppose the belief is twofold—is that it means that Australia effectively has ratified the convention while undermining its fundamental objectives. Secondly, should this legislation be taken as template legislation by other parties seeking to ratify the convention, our bad habits would then be spread around the world. So it is not that they are against the convention; it is that they are against the way in which the Australian government has sought to interpret it. That really is the key issue.

The minister has now confirmed at two different times the key substantive issues that I put to him last night. Firstly, he was reasonably confident that the reports that I cited last night and tabled for senators were reasonably accurate, at least to within an order of magnitude, in terms of the places and the number of weapons that were fired into those Iraqi settlements at the time of the operation that the Australian government supported. I think the figures from last night, from memory, indicated that upwards of two million submunitions were fired into metropolitan areas, and there was an extraordinary death and injury toll attendant on that. The minister has confirmed for us that Defence—I suppose that is on whose behalf he was replying, or at least the Attorney-General's Department—are reasonably comfortable that those reports are accurate. Secondly, he has just confirmed for us that the Royal Australian Air Force flew support missions for the United States military while it was dispersing those weapons into Iraq. My question for the minister now—this is the question on which most of my arguments on this bill hinge—is whether that behaviour would be unlawful under the terms of this bill.