Matt O'Sullivan (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Hansard source

I look forward to a more fulsome debate on this subject when the bill eventually does come before the Senate, but I do want to place a few things on the record and deal with some of the issues that have been raised by those opposite.

I really do respect the contribution of senators in this place. I don't in any way want to take away or diminish their sincerity and their commitment to the substantive issues that are dealt with when talking about this subject. But, for me and for this government, we certainly believe that every child has the right to feel safe, receive a good education and have high hopes for the future. Yet, through the work that I've done over many years across Australia, particularly in Indigenous communities, I've seen firsthand that not every Australian is afforded those opportunities, sadly. Alcohol and drug fuelled harm, enabled by unaccountable welfare provided to parents or guardians, has robbed far too many children of these rights. But, in those communities where the cashless debit card exists and based on the testimony of people living in those communities, we are thankfully seeing improvements. This is through the trial of a more responsible delivery of welfare, the cashless debit card.

The CDC is a user-friendly, sophisticated bank card that offers participants access to payWave, BPAY, online shopping, recurring deductions and the ability to transfer funds between program accounts. Rent can be paid through it. We've heard testimony here from other senators who said that rent couldn't be paid. That's simply not true. There might have been a situation where there wasn't enough funds in the account and that's why the payment wasn't made.

But there's no technical limitation on a person's ability to pay rent and pay for essential services for their families. When a payment is loaded onto the card, 80 per cent of it is quarantined for bills, groceries and living and school expenses—anything except alcohol, gambling or cash, which could then be used to purchase drugs. The other 20 per cent can be used to purchase any items that don't fall into these categories. I've been on the ground in the trial site communities, speaking to local community leaders and meeting with organisations directly involved in the delivery of the scheme and the wraparound services which support it. Their feedback, along with the evidence, has been very clear: participants have reported consistently that they are drinking less. That doesn't mean every single one of them has been able to deal with their issues. Of course not. No-one has said the cashless debit card is a silver bullet. No-one has said the cashless debit card is going to be the solution to the issues that are there.

I have been in those communities. I am not some academic at a desktop in Canberra, Melbourne or Sydney. I have been to these places and spoken to people on the ground. What they tell me is that it has become a circuit-breaker, particularly if they are providing social services to the community—counselling services, drug and alcohol services, and support to the community—they are telling me it is a circuit-breaker so they can help connect with people.

Just last week, a group got together from various parts of the country. It was organised by the Minderoo Foundation. I used to work for the Minderoo Foundation. I was part of the development of the cashless debit card when it was first put to government. The Minderoo Foundation brought together people from the communities in which the cashless debit card operates, including a few other places where they operate the BasicsCard. This legislation before the Senate will replace the BasicsCard, which is a very rudimentary technology. There are only 16,000 merchants across the country who will accept the BasicsCard, whereas there are 900,000 merchants who will accept the cashless debit card, which is essentially just a Mastercard. It can be used at EFTPOS machines right around the country, whereas the BasicsCard is very limited in where it can be used. There were individuals representing themselves at that forum and, in many cases, representing organisations. They were from the Northern Territory and from Cape York in Queensland, where the BasicsCard is in operation. There were Indigenous people and non-Indigenous people in the room when I was there. There were about 50 people who had gathered together. Sadly, because of the border restrictions, the people from Ceduna weren't able to come; but they participated online through Zoom or one of those mediums.

At the end of that forum they wrote a communique, which has just been released. I want to quote one section of it. It says: 'We support the continuation of the cashless debit card as an ongoing income management program to make the existing CDC trial sites permanent and to transition income management in the Northern Territory and Cape York region from the BasicsCard to the CDC.' So this assertion that the communities where the cashless debit card is operating now don't want it, or that it is not supported in the community, is simply not true. If any of us went to a community we would of course find people who don't support it. But the overwhelming sense that you get from people when you speak to them on the ground is that they do support the CDC—the mothers and the grandmothers in particular. They care deeply about their children and they're sick of the humbug, where others come and hassle them for money. If you sit down on the grass with them and listen to them, they'll tell you—when there's not the threat of being ostracised or maybe being abused for speaking out openly, like they did last week when they came to Perth—that they support the extension of this program.

One of the great parts of this legislation—just to give comfort to those who are listening—which was dealt with through the committee process is that it removes the power of the minister, through regulation, to expand it into other communities. Therefore it would require further legislation to come to this place in order to take it anywhere else. At that time, we'd be able to have a debate about the future of it and where it would go.

This legislation primarily deals with the fact that the BasicsCard needs to be replaced with a better solution so that when someone runs out of fuel, or is running low on fuel, and drives past a service station which doesn't accept the BasicsCard then they don't run the risk of running out of fuel in driving further down the road where a service station sells fuel by using the BasicsCard. The cashless debit card will be able to be used wherever an EFTPOS machine is. It makes it seamless and frictionless for the participant, and they won't have the hassle that they currently would have with the BasicsCard.

This is going to help communities across the Northern Territory and across Cape York. Those communities which have the cashless debit card already want the certainty of it going forward, rather than just 12 month, to 12 month to 12 month extensions, so they can continue to build on and deal with the issues that they so desperately want to deal with and to get on top. That's what this bill is about and, ultimately, that's what this report has demonstrated.

Question agreed to.