Ross Cadell (NSW, National Party) Share this | Hansard source

As I was sitting here waiting to talk, I was wondering whether I would take the high road or the low road in this debate on the Therapeutic Goods and Other Legislation Amendment (Vaping Reforms) Bill 2024. Prompted by the assertions of the last speaker, I'll probably take the low road.

What we've heard is a rambling about the National Party motives on this that would have been better distributed by a fertiliser truck on an open field than in any debate in the parliament. What we hear is that the Nationals are taking donations and therefore they must support the tobacco industry. By that theory, the Labor Party must be taking money from organised crime because 92 per cent of the vapes distributed in Australia are distributed by organised crime and criminal gangs, including bikie gangs and triads. That is the extension of that thought. It is so farcical that it is a joke, but that is the extension. If the eight per cent of industry, of big tobacco, that supply people who are getting their prescriptions are responsible for us taking this view, then I say the criminal gangs, the triads and the bikie gangs are responsible for Labor's policy, because that is where they stand. By not fighting the illegal supply of vapes, that is what's going on here.

I'll come back to the high road for a little bit. The good part about this bill is single-use vapes—get rid of them. They are wrong. They are what our kids use. They are easily brought in and they are hard to get rid of. They don't belong here, except for use by people with fine-motor-skills issues who can't reload the cartridges and the batteries. We may need a niche of prescription single-use vapes for those people. This doesn't go there, but I think there could be exceptions made for people who don't have the fine motor skills to reload the cartridges and batteries.

If we come to the mischief that everyone in the chamber—Labor, us, the Greens and the crossbenchers—want to stop, it is youths getting their hands on vapes. Let's not kid ourselves: every vape that an underage kid has taken to school, used or got somehow is illegal. It has been sold illegally, imported illegally and distributed illegally. They don't get their hands on the prescription, though there may be cases where they steal Mum's or Dad's prescription; I'll give you that. But we all want to stop that, and, philosophically, there is just a difference in how to do that.

Everyone is coming to this argument with their heart in the right place. I get that. That's what we want to do. But the evidence is clear: regulated vaping, where people have things to lose, stops illegal vaping more than prohibition. Almost every country in the world has vapes. It is like America in the thirties banning alcohol, when all their neighbours had it. You cannot stop it. Prisons ban smoking and drugs, and they still get in. That is the reality of what we're dealing with. The kids will still get their hands on vapes. Let's not kid ourselves: under this bill, under our policy or under any policy, kids will still get their hands on vapes. What I want is traceability of products, so I know where they come from, where they're made. I want suppliers who have traceable ingredients, with a limited batch of ingredients, so I can go out and take action against companies that do the wrong thing. We can ban companies. We can give prohibitions. We can put penalties on them for supplying vapes that hurt people.

There is evidence—it was even on 60 Minutes on Thursday night—about the ingredients that go into vapes. Drugs of the morphine variety that are thousands of times more powerful are being included. We have seen the Queensland Health analysis of vapes in their schools, where they contain formaldehyde and all manner of things. That is what we are trying to stop, and all of this chamber is on that page. That is good and that is the upside, but I believe firmly in allowing industry to supply goods to fight the illegal access and prevent criminals from bringing these things in. Starting on this pathway is a step in the right direction.

We hear those opposite and those in the corner talk about the tactics used by industry and big tobacco to get people hooked. These are crime gangs. We see them firebombing vapes stores. We see them threatening people in convenience stores. This isn't big tobacco; this is serious organised crime, as was said by the Australian Federal Police, in one of our hearings, and as was said by the police union. It is not big tobacco and it is not industry. They are criminals. And why do they do this? It's because the profits are real—massive—and the penalties have been short. I support the increase in penalties. I think any increase in enforcement is good. I don't think it's strong enough. I support Senator Ruston's point about a $250 million funding increase for policing, between AFP and Border Force. That is going somewhere near this. Let's get these penalties right. Let's put these people away, because it is wrong.

So we go to the mischief and stopping the kids. I believe a regulated model is better for that. But then I go to the estimated 1.4 million users of vapes across Australia right now. Again, they're mostly using illegal vapes—they don't know what goes into them—but some are using Australian made non-nicotine vapes. We'll talk about that industry a little bit later. Name anyone that doesn't have a vice, a hobby or something to do. People should be able to use vapes if they want to, in my opinion. It is not nicotine that causes cancer; it is smoking that causes cancer. If nicotine can be bought in gums, patches and pouches, why can nicotine not come in vapes? It is tobacco and smoking that cause the problem here, and over a million Australians, 1.7 million, have a right to use vapes and have access to them. It is their choice. I know pokies are a tax on stupidity, but I'll still have a slap every now and then. I know alcohol causes brain cells to die—and I haven't got many to spare!—but I'll still have a drink now and then. People can choose their way forward.

I say to those people out there: this model will have you going to a business that does not want to sell vapes and where you don't want to buy them, a pharmacy. There has not been enough consultation on that. I get what we're saying about the Greens amendment here and how this will improve things. I think it comes from a place of good intentions, but I think it falls short in what it will do. That's why I liked the fact that Senator Ruston, our shadow health spokesperson, got out there today and said, 'A fully regulated model is where we'll go in the next election,' because I think that fixes those problems, and the vapers out there will be able to go to a licensed store, which has something to lose, to buy the products that they want and not feel persecuted.

I come back to the Australian manufacturers of non-nicotine vapes and even retail vape stores. This has come on quickly for them. I note this bill does not offer one cent in compensation—no relocation of their business and no help for their business to get out. There are people who we heard of who have invested millions of dollars, who make non-nicotine vapes in Australia, who have the equipment, who get inspected, who buy their products and who get them regulated. They are stuck there with nothing now. People with leases on their licensed tobacco vaping stores now will not have a business, but they'll still be stuck in the lease. There's nothing for them, and that is not good enough.

We talk about the enforcement again. I sat on the main street in East Maitland while I was up there for a visit, and I watched from the IGA as, three doors down from a police car with police in it, people in school uniforms walked into a tobacconist vape store and walked out with a product. That is how easy it is to get. I have never smoked or vaped in my life. In Canberra, I found a place and put it on card in 15 minutes. Why? We heard from the police associations that they are so busy dealing with domestic violence, organised crime and other real issues that they can't go in and check where these vapes come from. I know it's a state issue because we are responsible for the wall around us to stop this stuff coming in. We haven't done it successfully. We say, 'We've caught this many hundred thousand vapes,' which is nothing in the overall supply. But enforcement has to be there. There needs to be more in this. There needs to be more money for the state policing organisations to resource the police to do this. There needs to be a taskforce set up to stop people selling these things. This doesn't do that.

In the end, what have we got? We had a bill that prohibited vaping unless it was with a script from a doctor. Many places don't have doctors that will see you to do it. Many doctors are uncomfortable giving a script for vaping. It was a pretty rubbish bill, other than the single-use ban. Then, as I said in the party room today, the Greens come along and say: 'Hold my beer. I can make it a little more stupid by having people who don't want to sell it sell it over the counter.' They've done that.

This is not a good bill. This doesn't stop vapes that we don't know the origin, contents and damage of from ending up in Australia. We will see more fire bombings in Melbourne. We will see more threats to shop owners. We will see more damage to young people. We will see more drive-by shootings because of this bill. The gang wars in Victoria especially are alive and well because there is money to be made in illegal vapes, and this doesn't stop it. I am disappointed in this bill. I am disappointed it doesn't go far enough to hurt the harm. I'm disappointed it doesn't help people who enjoy vaping and have a right to vape—nicotine or non-nicotine—out there in the world. And I'm disappointed it doesn't help Australian businesses—honest, clear, good businesses until this bill gets enacted—transition in any way shape or form. We've done it on everything else but not here, and that is not fair.

I will sit quietly when this bill passes. It should not pass; it should be better. I know it comes from a place that wanted to do the right thing but, like so many things in this government, it falls short. It was rushed—we got, on average, four-minute blocks in our Senate hearing to talk to people. We didn't get really good questions. Once again, we want to be seen to be doing something rather than actually doing it. So we are here. We will vote on it. Our kids will not be safer. Our people who are using vapes as a method to get off smoking will not be safer. The most important thing came right at the end of the hearing, when I asked the department: 'What does success look like? What are the vaping rates and new smoking rates that we'll see because of this bill?' The answer was, 'We haven't done that yet.' So I asked: 'What does failure look like? What is the youth smoking rate that we'll accept going up if pull these vapes?' And the answer was, 'We haven't done that yet.' So, here we go. We don't know what success looks like, we don't know what failure looks like, we don't have compensation for people whose business we'll take away, and this will pass. That is sad. As I ended my statements in the committee, this is a farce, but it is a farce that will pass.