Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs (Senator Vanstone) to questions without notice asked by Senators Ludwig and George Campbell today relating to the 457 visa program.

We have again heard horror stories about employer abuse of 457 visas, but they are now continuing to pile up. It is one upon the next, upon the next. What is now more disturbing is that they are becoming more serious and more shocking as they come out. When you look at the number of 457 visas, you will see that they have increased by 66 per cent over the last two years. We have had a rise in the number of 457 visas. The 457 visa concept itself is a good initiative, but this government is making an art form of how to abuse it or how to let employers abuse it.

Today the employer sanctions bill went through, but it has a six-month introduction time before it will start to impact upon this situation. I would suggest that this government prefers that long delay so that employers can continue to abuse it. What also concerns me is that there are reports in the Age today about a person who came to Australia on a 457 visa. He first had to pay nearly $10,000 to an employment agency in China. When he got to Australia there was another $10,000 debt waiting for him which he had to repay to the employer. Those types of abuses are starting to not only be more widespread but be reflected in the media. This is a government that is not addressing the problems directly. This is a government which is allowing people to be grossly underpaid in this area, at a rate below the federal minimal award and where penalties are also seemingly not paid.

The Australian Manufacturing Workers Union calculated that that man was underpaid by nearly $400 a week based on the award rate and industry standards. You then have a situation where this person starts to be $1,100 out of pocket. The government’s answer to this is: other people in the other area might also have been underpaid. But that is not an answer to the 457 visa; it is a reflection, more likely, on the inability of this government to ensure compliance with its own laws more generally not only in the migration area but also in the Work Choices area, in their industrial relations laws or in their occupational health and safety laws. It seems to be a government that much prefers laws not to be obeyed. It will not ensure compliance because it is more convenient to ensure people get these types of jobs to help employers out. But it is not an aberration; it is a system showing the hallmark of a system out of control.

This is not how 457 visas were supposed to operate. They were intended to be used as part and parcel of a proper immigration system, but it is breaking down significantly. The aim of the Howard government’s extreme workplace relations legislation is to work hand-in-glove with Work Choices and 457 visas to drive down the wages and conditions of Australian workers. We also have the controversy surrounding the ABC Tissues work site where foreign workers employed on 457 visas were not covered by workers compensation insurance and could not fundamentally speak or read English, therefore safety signs and emergency procedures could not be followed. The government must ensure that these matters are addressed, but I do not think they want them addressed. I do not think it is a government that seriously wants these issues dealt with. When you look at the requirements for 457 visas, there is no requirement to test whether there are actual skills shortages in those areas before a company can access these visas. There is no requirement to check whether there is a glut of graduates such as in the IT sector. Even in that area, it seems to say it is okay to import foreign workers to do the work. (Time expired)

Gary Humphries (ACT, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Let me contribute to this debate by saying, first of all, I am extremely concerned about the way in which the opposition in question time today chose to use as fodder for its questions a series of matters that are obviously being investigated in Australian workplaces. The opposition is quite happy to characterise these matters as breaches of the law with respect to the use of section 457 visas and other infractions against good practice and proper dealing with such workers when the evidence on those matters for the most part is not yet clearly available to any of us—not to you, not to me, not to the minister, not to any of us. Again, we see what we saw very clearly with the Work Choices campaign run by the ACTU and the Australian Labor Party: a series of allegations thrown out willy-nilly creating an atmosphere of concern and, when the facts come in, we will all have moved onto something else.

As the minister made very clear in her remarks today in answer to questions, there is certainly the possibility that some cases have produced instances of people abusing their opportunities as employers under section 457 visas. The question here, with great respect, is not whether there are isolated cases of employers who choose to break the law; it is whether or not it is the way in which Australian employers are generally using section 457 visas. I have no hesitation in saying, despite the evidence presented today, there is absolutely no case for saying that Australian employers are using or abusing section 457 visas in the way alleged by the opposition. The vast majority of employers are using the visas appropriately to replace serious work skills shortages in this community. There is no doubt about that whatsoever.

Secondly, I reject the assertion that the government in some way is not concerned about breaches of the law. On what basis is that claim made? There have been a small number of cases drawn to the attention of the Senate. In each of those cases, the minister has indicated that she and her department are fully, properly and quickly investigating them. These issues are being taken seriously by all concerned. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the government does not want the laws to be obeyed or the issues to be seriously addressed, as Senator Ludwig suggested, because for some reason the government wants to allow employers to operate these sweatshops, exploit workers in this way, drive down their wages, treat them like dirt and somehow enhance the profitability of corporate Australia as a result. Those suggestions are so laughable as to put great discredit onto members of the opposition in suggesting that they could seriously be entertained in this place.

Anybody in the workforce today knows that we face significant skills shortages. They know that we have a significant problem in this country, a problem growing as each year passes. Like so many other places in the world, we have no choice but to use the services of overseas workers, guest workers, to plug employment gaps in our workforce and our economy. That has to happen. Even Senator Ludwig has acknowledged that we have to have devices like section 457 visas.

Having accepted that fact, you cannot get away from the possibility that somewhere at some time an employer may be a rogue employer, may cut corners, may split those workers and may break the law. It is one thing to say that a thing can happen; it is quite another to suggest that in some way the government condones or encourages it. It is up to the opposition to produce the evidence of that, Senator Marshall and Senator Ludwig.

George Campbell (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We have!

Gary Humphries (ACT, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, you have not. You have produced no evidence of that whatsoever. You have asserted that there have been no proper investigations—there have been plenty of proper investigations. These matters have been thoroughly examined and are being examined at the present time. The allegations are being taken extremely seriously. When you indicate how they are not—that people are not being prosecuted for breaches of the law—then I will take your claims seriously. For the meantime, the government is pursuing these matters appropriately, and will continue to use section 457 visas to ensure Australians—(Time expired)

George Campbell (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I must say, that was an incredible contribution by Senator Humphries. He is in fairyland. We on this side of the chamber have not said that every employer who is bringing employees in on 457 visas is seeking to rort the system. There are a lot of employers legitimately bringing people in to meet genuine skills shortages. The New South Wales government has been doing it with nurses. It has been paying them under the same rates and conditions as other nurses in the health industry. That is fine. There is not a problem with that. But, Senator Humphries, there is indisputable evidence that there are employers bringing people into this country on 457 visas and using and exploiting them. They are using them as cheap labour and employing them in circumstances where it is disadvantaging Australian workers.

Let us take the example of ABC Tissues; a question was asked of the minister about this in question time today. ABC Tissues brought workers in from China to install equipment in the tissue plant that is being constructed in Wetherill Park. There was labour available in this country to undertake that work. There was a company 20 minutes from the site in Wetherill Park that had installed similar equipment for the ABC Tissues company in Queensland, and whose employees had sought the contract at Wetherill Park. They did not get it. They wanted it but, instead, the company organised, through a Chinese labour hire company, to provide the labour out of China. This was brought to the attention of ABC Tissues, and was raised with the minister in a letter written on 23 May, which set out the concerns the union had with what was occurring on that site. I will only read a part of it, but the letter said:

The first matter is the exploitation of guest workers in terms of their occupational health and safety and related issues. The second issue is the fact of guest workers’ inferior wages and conditions being used as a means of undermining the wages and conditions of local workers, who were denied the contract despite the fact they had done similar work for the company on a previous site built in Queensland.

So it was drawn to the minister’s attention on 23 May. The company eventually got a meeting with the department on 23 June—it took a month to get a meeting with the department to discuss the issue! At that meeting, the circumstances of the case were again run across the department, but the case did not surface as an issue until August; the department had done nothing in the interceding month.

And what happened when there were inspections on the ABC Tissue site at Wetherill Park? What did they actually find, Senator Humphries? They found that workers were working on the roof, 15 metres in the air, with no safety rail and with no safety equipment whatsoever. They found that there were unqualified electricians handling exposed cables. They found that welders were wearing completely inadequate safety glasses. They found that there was handling of hydrochloric acid with no safety gear. They found that tools and equipment did not meet Australian standards. They found that there were no signs in Chinese on the site, despite the fact that the Chinese workers did not speak English. WorkCover said that those workers needed supervision at all times. The crowning glory was that there was one woman to interpret for all of the Chinese workers on the site, and she had to carry out administrative duties at the same time. The Labor Party are not blaming the workers, but it is obvious—

Julian McGauran (Victoria, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You are blaming the government.

George Campbell (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, we are. We are blaming the government because the government are allowing it to happen. It took the government seven years to make changes to the Migration Act in order to be able to take action against employers who are exploiting illegal workers. How long will it take the government to clean up their act in terms of properly supervising the use of these visas and the way in which employees who are brought into this country as temporary labour are looked after by the same terms and conditions as Australian workers? (Time expired)

Julian McGauran (Victoria, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In following Senator George Campbell in this debate, my only regret is that the proceedings of parliament are broadcast only on radio. I think it is about time we brought ‘Parl TV’ in because, if anyone could have seen the face of Senator George Campbell, it would have told them the real truth about what an absolute beat-up we are dealing with in relation to 457 visas. Let’s bring TV in so we can get right close up on Senator George Campbell and the speaker who is to follow me, because they are not telling the truth. They are seeking to pull down the 457 visa system. They are sullying it—

Gavin Marshall (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I rise on a point of order. Senator McGauran is not able to make that claim under the standing orders.

John Hogg (Queensland, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McGauran, you will need to withdraw that comment.

Julian McGauran (Victoria, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I do indeed withdraw it; I realised that I would have to as I said it, Mr Deputy President. But I am so passionate about this issue of wanting to bring in ‘Parl TV’. We would then see a few home truths when people from the Labor Party stand up and try to present a case that they and their party simply do not believe in. The Labor Party are seriously against 457 visas. If they were not, they would not attempt to sully them by making false and misleading assertions as the Labor senators and the leader—

Gavin Marshall (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Which one?

Julian McGauran (Victoria, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Where do I begin? Let me start with Senator Evans, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate. Some weeks ago, when questioning Senator Vanstone, Senator Evans created a case which was false in every line and every element: the caravan case. They are all blushing over there because I have mentioned the 457 visa case that Senator Evans raised which was utterly false. He misrepresented the facts when he said that unskilled workers had been brought in to work in a caravan park, when in fact those unskilled workers were the family of the skilled worker who was brought into this country. Senator Evans conveniently left out that particular fact. And that was not enough. Senator Evans decided that the classification of the job was ‘caravan worker’ when in fact it was ‘caravan manager’. I would be surprised if he did not know that. The position of a caravan manager is a skilled position.

It was not too long before Senator Ludwig gave the game up when he dovetailed this whole debate into the industrial relations debate. That is the key to the reason that the Labor Party continually raise this issue in the parliament. They are seeking to put fear into the minds of Australian workers by making them think that a foreigner is going to take their job and that they are going to experience lower wages—when nothing could be further from the truth. The facts are on the board: after millions of dollars have been spent, the Labor Party’s industrial relations campaign is already petering out. Spend some more—go right ahead; you have got 12 months before the next election to sell your case. I can tell you now: it is petering out, because the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The unemployment rate is 4.8 per cent and heading down, and wages are increasing. They increased in the last quarter and, as we know, over the past 10 years they have increased some 16.8 per cent.

The government reject that 457 visas are an instrument for cheap labour. It is quite the contrary. We are able to separate the abuses—and there are some. As Senator Vanstone has stated, we have followed them up with vigour on every occasion, including the case that the Age reported with regard to a Hawthorn printing company. The worker himself reported the case. I do not know where the union was at the time, but the worker had the wit to report the case to the department. The very next day, the department interviewed the workers concerned, and the case is now under investigation—as is the ABC Tissues case. Those cases will be investigated vigorously.

We are able to separate the few abuses of this worthwhile visa program—which meets the short-term skills shortages of Australia—from the absolute merit of the program. No Australian will be put aside because of this program; no Australian will have lower wages because of this program. It does meet a particular need and the states support it. Why don’t you go back to Western Australia or New South Wales and tell the premiers that you are not in favour of this scheme? Tell them that you are in here sullying the scheme with beat-up cases. (Time expired)

Gavin Marshall (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I guess that demonstration from Senator McGauran just confirms why we ought to be so worried about this scheme. He has tried to drive all the issues down to the level of a joke. We are very concerned about the abuse of the 457 visa category. We certainly acknowledge that, in areas where there is a demonstrated skills shortage, there should be such a scheme. As Senator Campbell pointed out, in the case of nurses this scheme has worked very well, and we support that. People have come in, they are not being exploited and they are receiving the proper rates of pay that apply to the other nurses in those situations.

Senator Humphries and Senator McGauran seem to be in a state of denial about the evidence that has been presented day after day in this parliament and widely in the public domain. They want to deny that there are actually problems. But there are very serious problems. The most serious problem is that you do not need to demonstrate that there is a skills shortage to apply this visa.

All the government would need to do to make this process work more appropriately and to take out most of the abuse would be to ensure that, if an employer wants to bring someone in for a skills based vacancy because they cannot fill that vacancy from within Australia, they are able to demonstrate that that is truly the case. If there were a process where the employer had to at least advertise, go through a process and demonstrate to DIMA that they had tried to fill the vacancy from within Australia, I think that would take a lot of the abuse out of the system. I cannot understand why the government will not take that very minor but absolutely important step. One would automatically assume that if you need to recruit from overseas it is because you cannot fill the position from within Australia. For those who do not even bother to do that but simply have a preference for employing people from overseas, you have to seriously question their motivation. That is what leads to the abuse, and the abuse has been demonstrated time after time.

Senator Humphries said that it is not appropriate for the opposition to raise matters that are under investigation by the department and that, in all instances, these matters are under investigation. I want to say to Senator Humphries that I think that is a little bit rich. If we look at the ABC Tissues case, back in August 2005 ABC Tissues was found to have breached a number of migration rules and regulations in terms of these visas. They were found to be in breach then. But what happened? Time after time, they were allowed to reuse the visa when they had knowingly broken the conditions. They were able to bring people in under the same visa application again, and there were simply more breaches.

I cannot remember whether Senator Humphries was here yesterday, but I assume he probably was here during question time. He would have heard Senator Vanstone say—in answer to a question I asked her—that the Hunan industrial company, which works directly for ABC Tissues, was getting a notice of intention to sanction on a number of grounds, including failing to pay the minimum salary level, failing to comply with other migration laws, failing to comply with workplace relations laws, not ensuring the necessary licensing of workers, failing to notify Immigration of relevant changes in circumstances and failing to deduct tax instalments.

Senator Vanstone has admitted these breaches in this area. These are breaches that have already occurred. So what has happened? That company, ABC Tissues and the Italian company—which Senator Vanstone did not name but referred to as the other company involved in the group of three—are continuing to be granted more 457 visas when it has been clearly demonstrated that those visas are being abused. Case after case has been put on the public record and raised here.

Senator Humphries, who obviously was not listening to Minister Vanstone yesterday, went on to ask on what basis we say that the government is not interested in ensuring that the law is upheld. We only have to point to that particular case. In August 2005 the company was found to have breached the migration laws and it is already through the process— (Time expired)

Question agreed to.