Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Industry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Schools Assistance (Learning Together—Achievement Through Choice and Opportunity) Amendment (2007 Budget Measures) Bill 2007 is in many ways deceptively simple. We have already confirmed that the government has changed the guidelines with regard to the allocation of moneys, changing the ceiling for the amount of money that is available for non-government schools in this last tranche of money that is available under this program. However, what is of concern to me is not just the mechanism by which these changes are made—despite election commitments—but the uses to which the government has put the statistics. I see that the officials are leaving the chamber—and I have a question in this regard. At the Senate estimates committee an undertaking was given by officers of the department that information would be provided to the estimates committee, during those estimates hearings, on the claims that have been made about the increases in expenditure that the government has made for education purposes. It was revealed that the officers had prepared these statistics, which the minister had used for her claim that expenditure for government schools had increased by 70 per cent during the life of the government; and, as I recall it, the minister claimed that expenditure for the next quadrennium would increase from $33 billion to $42 billion. An undertaking was given to me, on behalf of the committee, that the department would provide a figure for the increase in expenditure for the non-government school sector. I ask the minister: where is this figure?

In doing so, I also take this opportunity to point out that Senator Brandis, who was the minister at the table, and who behaved courteously and appropriately, has made the point to me that he has, since being a minister, followed the practice that he had when he was the chair of a committee. Since his recent appointment to being a minister he has not changed his attitude to the requirement that departments respond to questions appropriately and in a timely manner. So this is not a criticism I make of the minister who was at the table at the time of the estimates committee. I do, however, note the number of estimates questions to which this department has failed to respond on time. I also note the number of occasions on which estimates answers appear to have been so severely edited as to be nonsensical. So I ask a very simple proposition, put forward a very simple proposition: if the government—

Julian McGauran (Victoria, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You can’t ask a proposition!

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Industry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is that the Einstein over there who wants to blurt something out again, is it? What, has a sheep got away from you again?

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Carr!

Julian McGauran (Victoria, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McGauran interjecting—

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Industry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, I put forward—

Julian McGauran (Victoria, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McGauran interjecting—

The Temporary Chairman:

Senator McGauran, we are returning to the question.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Industry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I put forward a very simple proposition: if the increase in expenditure by this government for government schools, on the government’s estimate, was 70 per cent, what was the figure for non-government schools? I ask the minister now: where is that figure?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Justice and Customs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

For the benefit of Senator Carr, the figure that is to be found must be an accurate figure. The department is working on obtaining that figure and I can say to Senator Carr that it is not a simple process. It requires some investigation. We are looking for the figure and, as soon as we have ascertained the figure and are satisfied with its veracity, we will give it to you.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Industry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, I appreciate the spirit in which you have just conveyed information from the officers. Again, I make the point that I am not directing my criticism at the officers or at the minister at the table. But, with the worldwide resources of this department, I find this incredible. A figure could be provided to the minister on the increase in government expenditure for government schools and she could use that figure in the House of Representatives and in numerous interviews and in other places. Claims could be made as to what the expenditure increase would be in the next quadrennium. Yet those figures are not available for the non-government sector. I find that a totally incredible proposition.

Furthermore, when an undertaking was given to us at an estimates committee that that information would be provided and it has not been, I find the explanation in those circumstances also incredible. We now have a situation where, two weeks later—I think I am right about that; I think it is two weeks—the department still cannot find the figure. This is extraordinary carelessness—that they cannot locate a figure of that type in that length of time. So I put it to you, Minister, that this is not acceptable. And I think that if you were in my place you would not disagree with that proposition.

The government wants this bill and, frankly, we would have no objections to it being passed. But I want that figure. I do not think it is unreasonable for me to seek a follow-up of that nature. The minister may well have the figure already on her desk. In fact, I would find it highly surprising if this figure were not contained in some ministerial brief somewhere already. The minister should be aware that responding to this chamber is not an unreasonable request in these circumstances. This is not an extraordinary amount of work for the department to undertake. It is information that would be provided in the normal course of events. And, given the fact that the minister has sought to make such a political issue of the government’s expenditure on government schools and its claim of a 70 per cent increase, it is not an unreasonable proposition that this chamber be provided with the rest of the information about the government’s education programs.

We understand the nature of education funding in this country. We understand that, in terms of the AGSRC, the rates of indexation are considerably higher than inflation. And, from memory, they have gone around the seven-point mark, with inflation; they have been probably sometimes as much as three per cent above the inflation rate. We do understand the nature of the way that that index is put together—that increased expenditure in one sector leads to increased expenditure in another sector. And it is a profound irony that there could be an increase in expenditure of the type that the government speaks of and that automatically flows through to funding under the current SES system. So I think it is not an unreasonable proposition that this figure would be reasonably available.

Quite simply, we are standing by the proposition that there should be a needs based funding model. We have made the point again and again that under Labor no school will be worse off under our funding arrangements.

We have made the point that the government, which has undertaken a review of its SES funding arrangements, has sought to keep that review secret. The government has not even published what the submissions to that review were. To my recollection they were not even in double figures. Those submissions should have been made public. The government has not done that. We have called upon the government to provide additional support for public education in this country. So I think it is a reasonable proposition that, in those circumstances, the Senate should have the opportunity to appreciate what the level of increase in funding has been. Again, I ask the minister: when will this figure be available?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Justice and Customs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have given an answer on that and I do not think it is unreasonable to give the departmental officials time to ascertain the correct figure, a figure in which they can place confidence.

Progress reported.