Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Immigration and Citizenship, Senator Carr.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

He is not the minister; he is the minister representing the minister!

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister repre­senting, thank you. I refer to a report in the Daily Telegraph on 5 May 2011 in relation to the homemade bomb found at the Villawood detention centre which stated:

Villawood staff said the fire and bomb was reported to the department but no action was taken because it was classed as a minor incident.

If a fire resulting from a bomb is considered a minor incident generating no action, what would the minister consider a major incident that required action?

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I thank Senator Cash for her question. Following a small fire on 19 March 2011, New South Wales police took possession of what they have referred to as a bomb. Importantly, the department did act appropriately in calling the fire brigade in the first instance and then alerting the police, who are now investigating the incident. Whether the device was actually a bomb or not is a matter for police investigation.

The fire was discovered and extinguished by Serco officers at 3.20 am on Saturday, 19 March 2011. Local emergency services were immediately called. The New South Wales police attended at approximately—

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order going to relevance. While I appreciate the minister's information in relation to what occurred at the detention centre, I am not asking about that. I am asking: what type of incident needs to occur for this government to consider it a major incident?

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on the point of order. It is clearly appropriate for Senator Carr, as a representing minister, to provide information from the brief he has from the responsible minister. It is directly on the topic that Senator Cash addressed to him. She has two supplementary questions to follow up with if she wishes further inform­ation. But he has been directly on the topic, providing what information he has about the incident, and it is quite outrageous to suggest that he is not being relevant. If there are other matters that are not covered in his primary answer, the senator has the opportunity to ask two supplementary questions. Senator Carr is being as helpful as he can be by providing the information that is supplied to him.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is no point of order.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I have been asked by Senator Cash about an incident that occurred at the centre on 19 March 2011. I am providing information. She has sought to rely on a newspaper report of the allegations as to what occurred on this occasion. I have provided information to the Senate on the basis of the information that has been provided to me by the minister. What I can indicate is that the New South Wales police are making inquiries into the nature of the events that occurred and that no person of interest in relation to the incident has been identified at this stage. The department advised the minister's office of the fire at the time but not of the discovery of the device or that the police had taken it for examination as possible evidence. In terms of what the senator seeks to assert is a matter of priority, that is entirely hypothetical.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I refer to the comments made by the immigration minister, Chris Bowen, on Sydney commercial radio on 4 May 2011 that he was not aware that a homemade bomb had been found at the Villawood detention centre one month before riots at the centre which resulted in nine buildings being gutted by fire. Why was the minister not aware of the homemade bomb and what steps has the minister taken to ensure he remains fully informed on the vital issues within his portfolio?

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have indicated to Senator Cash that this is a matter of ongoing police inquiry as to whether or not it was actually a bomb, and that is a matter where we will wait for police advice.

In terms of the radio interview, the minister has already expressed his view that it was unacceptable that he was not informed of the discovery of the device, and he has made his concerns very clear to the department about the discovery of this homemade incendiary. The minister has instructed the secretary of the department to investigate why he was not informed and ensure that this does not happen in the future. There is not much more I can add to assist Senator Cash in that matter.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. How does the government expect the Australian people to have any faith in their so-called border protection policies if the minister was not even aware of a bomb in a detention centre until he was told by a talkback radio host?

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What I have indicated is that whether this device was actually a bomb or something other than that is the subject of an ongoing police inquiry. The fire that was the subject of the incident itself was discovered and extinguished by Serco officers at 3.20 in the morning. The local emergency services were called immediately. The New South Wales police attended at 4 am and they took possession of what is now referred to as a bomb and returned later in daylight hours to take photographs. No person of interest has actually been identified at this stage as a result of the police inquiry. The department did not advise the minister at the time and the department secretary has been instructed to find out why not.

Sarah Hanson-Young (SA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration, Senator Carr. The Malaysian High Commissioner today declared that Australia cannot simply dictate which people will be sent to Malaysia under the Gillard government's Malaysian solution. Will the Malaysian government officials come to Australia to select which asylum seekers they will take or will it simply be conducted through paperwork? How will the Malaysian government decide who is sent to their country?

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the senator for her question. The government has announced that the Australian and Malaysian governments have committed to enter into a landmark transfer agreement under the regional cooperative framework and that this process undermines the efforts of people smugglers to seek to encourage people to undertake very risky journeys to Australia. This in fact is a new initiative to ensure that we are able to take all the necessary steps to highlight the extra­ordinary dangers of undertaking such a voyage and to indicate to people that this is a counterproductive move and is unlikely to produce the results that people are looking for in terms of finding settlement here, because people will be sent to Malaysia, from which many of them come originally, and will be placed at the back of the queue.

What we are seeing for the first time in these arrangements is that the UNHCR will be directly involved—

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I raise a point of order. The minister was asked directly whether Malaysian officials would come to Australia. The question needs to be answered directly as well.

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order, Mr President, Senator Carr has been answering the question. It is a complex issue to describe in detail but Senator Carr has been working through that detail quite specifically in dealing with the issue that he has been asked to respond to. I submit that there is no point of order in this respect.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Carr, I draw your attention to the fact that there is 50 seconds remaining on the clock to answer the question that has been asked by Senator Hanson-Young.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have indicated that for the first time the UNHCR will be involved in the processes involving the Malaysian government. The reports today that the Malaysian High Commissioner is wanting the right to refuse people entry are inaccurate and misleading. While the government cannot comment on the specifics of current diplomatic negotiations, the reports that appeared today are incorrect. What I would have thought the Greens would be particularly interested in is that, for the first time, the UNHCR is involved in terms of the Malaysian government, a point which the UNHCR have made and indicated is a matter of some significance to them. The public comments by their spokesperson have highlighted that fact. (Time expired)

Sarah Hanson-Young (SA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I have a supplementary question. Do we take it, then, that Malaysia will not refuse anybody who is sent to Malaysia under this agreement put forward by the Australian government?

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I can indicate that I am advised that the reports today suggesting that the Malaysian High Commissioner is wanting the right to refuse people entry are inaccurate and misleading. While the government is not in a position to negotiate in public with the government of Malaysia, what I can say is that the reports published today are in­accurate. I remind the senator that UNHCR regional representative Richard Charles says that this is a bilateral agreement that has been negotiated within the broader regional cooperation framework with the involvement of the UNHCR, the involvement of the IOM, the International Organisation for Migration and, we hope, the involvement of other im­portant actors as well, including non-government organisations. So it is an agree­ment between countries that are actively involved with refugee issues and that commonly face a refugee displacement problem. (Time expired)

Sarah Hanson-Young (SA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My final supplementary question to the minister is, if Malaysia have not requested the ability to buy into the process of selecting who will be taken to Malaysia, what rights have they reserved and when will we see the signed MUA?

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sarah Hanson-Young (SA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

MOU. I have always been a unionist at heart. We know that the heart of the union movement is in the Greens.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have made it perfectly clear that, on the advice that I have, the reports in today's press are inaccurate and misleading; that the government of Australia and the government of Malaysia will work towards achieving a new MOU and in the course of those negotiations will continue to work with the UNHCR and the International Organi­sation for Migration. These are major new initiatives, major new developments, in regard to the way the refugee conventions are being treated within our region. I would have thought that the Greens would acknowledge that and appreciate the very, very important and significant developments that have occurred.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is also to the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Citizenship. I wonder if the minister could advise the Senate of the date on which the new five-for-one proposal to take 4,000 asylum seekers from Malaysia in return for 800 sent to Malaysia will take effect?

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have already indicated that the government is in the process of developing the MOU with the Malaysian government. There has been a joint statement already issued between the Prime Minister of Australia and the Prime Minister of Malaysia at the weekend. What I can say, Senator Macdonald, is that it is extraordinary hypocrisy on behalf of the Liberal Party to be arguing the case about increasing the level of support—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Carr, I draw your attention to the question. You have one minute 25 seconds remaining to address the question that was asked by Senator Macdonald.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What I can indicate to you, Mr President, is the extraordinary hypocrisy for the Liberal Party to be arguing the case about increasing the refugee intake, because at the last election—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, the minister is flagrantly defying your ruling. You pulled him up when he went completely away from the answer to the question and started politically attacking the Liberal Party. You pulled him up and he has treated your ruling with complete contempt.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Ludwig.

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is no point of order in that, in that Senator Brandis simply wants to re-agitate an issue. Of course, that gives him using a point of order as a platform to challenge your ruling. This matter is a matter for the President and the President has ruled on the matter and therefore there is no point of order.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I had drawn the minister's attention quite clearly to the fact that at that stage he had I think it was one minute 20 seconds to answer the question. The minister now has one minute 16 seconds. I draw your attention to the question.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am delighted at the prospect of being able to answer this question, Mr President, because in the last election the Liberal Party, who now complain about increasing our humanitarian intake, proposed to increase to 15,000—and they were prepared to double that number in their sleazy deal before the last election.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order—that of relevance. My question, as you have accepted and twice pulled the minister up, was clearly about the date upon which this took effect. It did not ask anything about the Liberal Party; it did not ask anything about philosophies or policies. I simply want to know the date on which this will take effect.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I had at the one minute 16 seconds mark drawn the minister's attention to the question. The minister still has one minute and one second remaining to answer the question.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. What I have indicated is that the government will finalise the agreement with Malaysia in the coming weeks, depending on resolution of certain operational matters. I also indicated that it was a bit rich to argue the toss about increasing the humanitarian target, which we are quite proud of, when the Liberal Party during the last election sought to increase it to 15,000 and double it in their conversations when they were trying to secure a majority in the House of Repre­sentatives—a proposition which would have cost $3 billion. That was the claim when they were discussing the matter with Mr Wilkie—$3 billion to get one vote. And they want to argue the toss about increasing slightly the refugee intake numbers that we are doing at the moment! We see here a little of hypocrisy even by Liberal Party standards that sinks to new depths.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. There is hardly any time left now for the minister to address the specific question that he was asked; that is: when will it begin? The minister has persistently and wilfully disobeyed your ruling in breach of standing order 203. A ask you, Mr President, to deal with the minister under standing order 203.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, you have six seconds remaining to answer the question.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have indicated to you, Mr President, that the answer to the question is that we will finalise the agreement with Malaysia in coming weeks and that the Liberal Party are nothing more than hypocrites on this matter. (Time expired)

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I thank the minister for saying initially that they were in the process of developing arrangements and later then saying that it would be a number of weeks, dependent upon certain operational matters. Thank you, Minister. What this really means is that we have no idea—it could be weeks, months, years. So I asked the minister: what additional steps is the government proposing to stop the flood of boat arrivals who will try to get in in that interregnum—that one week, three months, two years or whatever it is—until this arrangement is finalised?(Time expired)

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The government will continue all its efforts to secure Australia's borders and to ensure that we treat people properly in that process. We are indicating to people who now are contemplating being in the hands of the people smugglers that it is not in their interest to engage in that action by seeking to travel to Australia by boat. We will settle the outstanding matters with Malaysia in the signing of an MOU very, very quickly. We are also in the process of engaging in ongoing talks with the Papua New Guinea government about the establishment of an assessment centre in that country. We have a range of measures, therefore, in place where we are seeking to deal with these matters in a firm but very fair approach to ensure that Australia is able to secure, within its inter­national treaty obligations, proper assess­ments of people seeking to come to this country by irregular movements.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. I thank the minister. I note that the minister would not assure the Senate that Malaysia would take whoever was sent to them, when Senator Hanson-Young asked, so I asked the minister: why is it that the Malaysian gov­ernment can decide who comes to their country and the circumstances in which they come but the Australian government cannot?

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What I can draw Senator Macdonald's attention to is—and I am not quite sure what the nature of the question was—is the fact that the government will be working with the government of Malaysia to ensure that we are able to treat people properly and, as the UNHCR has indicated, that the nature of this agreement, a bilateral agreement, has been negotiated within the broader regional context with the involve­ment of the UNHCR and with the involve­ment of the International Organi­sation for Migration. This is the first time this has happened with respect to Malaysia and we hope that there will be other important actors as well, which will include non-government organisations. So there is a real opportunity here, an opportunity to deal with these issues in a humane and fair but firm way to ensure that the agreement between this government and other countries involved in refugee issues are treated properly. (Time expired)