Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Finance and Deregulation, Senator Wong. Is it true that the government has presided over one of the fastest fiscal expansions in our history? Has the minister seen the research of Dr Ken Rogoff of Harvard University which shows that Australia has increased its public debt at the third-fastest pace in the world, after Iceland and Ireland, since 2007, which, surprisingly enough, was when the Labor Party was elected to government?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If the senator is asking, 'Did the global financial crisis happen?', the answer is yes. If the senator is asking, 'Did the government go into deficit so as to ensure that we could put stimulus into the economy to save jobs and prevent the country going into recession?', the answer is yes. If the senator is asking, 'Was this government responsible for ensuring that 200,000 Australians and their families were not put on the dole queues because we chose to put stimulus into the economy?', then the answer is yes. And, Senator Joyce, your party made the wrong call on that occasion and you are making the wrong call now. The senator cannot come in here and ask me questions about debt and deficit while his side—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, he can.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

it is called hypocrisy, Senator Brandis—

while his side is busy adding to the Mr Abbott debt truck with the Mr Abbott spendathon. If the senator really cared about the state of the federal budget, he would go into the coalition joint party room, ensure that those opposite stop putting forward spending measures and argue for the support of the savings measures in the government's budget, a budget that ensures—

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I repeat: the interjections that have been taking place have been not helping question time.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on direct relevance. Three-quarters of the way into the time allotted for her answer the minister has done nothing more than answer questions that were not posed by the questioner but posed by herself, abuse the questioner and not bear on the question at all.

Mark Arbib (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Social Housing and Homelessness) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on the point of order, there is no point of order. The minister is being directly relevant to the question. Just because the answer is not the answer that the senator requires does not mean she is not answering the question.

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On both sides there needs to be order! On the point of order, the minister has 35 seconds remaining to address the question. As is known, I cannot tell the minister how to answer the question. I do draw the minister's attention to the question in the 35 seconds remaining to answer the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. I was asked about debt, and I would make this point: Australia's public finances are extraordinarily strong by international standards. Net debt for us in the next financial year peaks at 7.2 per cent of GDP. Compare this to in excess of 85 per cent of GDP for the US in the same year or in excess of 73 per cent of GDP for the United Kingdom in the same year. But what is more important is this: the opposition cannot vote against these measures and still have the rhetoric. They cannot have it both ways. (Time expired)

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I refer the minister to the front page article in the Australian today, which shows that state and federal debt will climb to $552 billion by 2014. Does the minister believe that the Future Fund chairman, Mr David Murray, is being sensationalist or scaremongering when he says, 'If the economy is already indebted, and terms of trade are at an all-time high, causing capacity constraints in the economy, incremental indebtedness of governments will crowd out the private sector'?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is correct that there are strong reasons to return the budget to surplus, which is why we are engaging in the fastest fiscal consolidation since the 1960s—3.8 per cent over two years. That is, of course, if those on the other side accept the importance of fiscal responsibility and vote for the government's savings measures. I am not surprised you are interrupting, Senator Joyce.

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. Quite simply, does the minister agree with David Murray's statement or doesn't she?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Joyce, that is not a point of order.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I started the answer by saying there are strong reasons to bring the budget back to surplus. They have been spoken about by the government, by the Treasurer, by the Prime Minister and by me. That is why the budget has us on track to come back to surplus in 2012-13, the fastest fiscal consolidation since the 1960s. Senator Joyce does not like people pointing out the double standard of asking about this and then not voting for those savings measures and voting for more debt through more spending. He does not like people pointing that out. (Time expired)

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is the promise of consolidation but the reality of expansion. Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Can the minister confirm that, since Julia Gillard became Prime Minister, she has borrowed an average of $135 million every day? Can the minister explain why this rate of borrowing is in fact higher than that achieved by her predecessor, former Prime Minister Rudd? Is it going to be more than the next Prime Minister, Stephen Smith?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, you can only answer those parts of the question that pertain to your portfolio responsibility.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The senator speaks about the promise of fiscal consolidation. I am sure I can give a commitment on behalf of the senators on this side that we will vote for that. We will vote for those measures in the budget that ensure that there is the fiscal consolidation that the senator speaks of. We will vote for the savings measures that make sure this country is back on track to return the budget to surplus. We will do that. I would invite the senator, if he does care about these issues—if he cares about debt and if he cares about returning to surplus—to stand up now and tell us that he will also vote for the government's savings measures. If he fails to do that, his silence will speak volumes.