Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have two very specific questions for the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency. Could the minister advise the Senate what the reduction in tonnes of carbon in greenhouse gas emissions will be in the first year after the carbon tax is imposed and what is that as a percentage of total world greenhouse gas emissions? Minister, if you say that depends on what the price of carbon is, perhaps you could then tell the Senate what the range is that is being looked at. So, on the range of carbon prices, what is the number of tonnes—two very specific questions—in reduction of carbon in the first year and, secondly, what is that as a percentage of total world greenhouse gas emissions?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The good senator did anticipate my first response to that, which is that the extent of emission reduction does depend on the price as well as on other factors, including how industry responds and how the economy responds to the challenge of abatement. It is the case that the level of emissions reduction does depend, in large part, on the price. Unsurprisingly, notwithstanding the question from the senator, I am not going to be announcing aspects of a package that is obviously still being worked through by the government and by the members of parliament who do care about this issue. I am simply not going to go through a hypothetical analysis, as I am being invited to.

It is clear, notwithstanding the opposition of the opposition, that placing a price on carbon is the most effective way to reduce emissions. It is the cheapest way to reduce emissions. That is why this government tried on a number of previous occasions to get a price on carbon through the Senate. That is why the former Prime Minister, Mr Howard, arrived at a position that Australia should put a price on carbon.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I have a point of order on relevance. I did not ask the minister about what other governments might have done. I asked two very specific questions: the number of tonnes and, if it depends on a price, the range—which I know the climate change department has been working on or should have been—and what that is as a percentage of world emissions. They are very specific and have nothing to do with what the previous government might or might not have done. I would ask you, Mr President, to tell the minister to answer it or sit down if she cannot.

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on the point of order: this is a question that was based on a false premise and had a hypothetical thrown in as well. This is a question that was utterly ludicrous. Despite that, Senator Wong has been absolutely discussing the question and responding to it. But when you ask a hypothetical on a hypothetical on a hypothetical it does become a little absurd and it is broad ranging. I would ask you to dismiss this frivolous point of order. Senator Macdonald is just embarrassed that his question was so poor.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I cannot tell the minister how to answer the question and the minister does have 19 seconds remaining to address the question that has been asked by Senator Macdonald.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was asked what the emissions reduction would be and I answered that that obviously depends on the price as well as other factors. I was invited to give a range on the price and I have explained to the chamber why I am not in a position to do that until the government announces its package.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. If free permits are to be given to the big emitters like the steel, cement and coal industries, as demanded by the AWU's Paul Howes and Bill Ludwig, how does this lessen Australia's output of carbon emissions?

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on a point of order: I direct your attention to standing order 73 which says that questions shall not contain hypothetical matter. That question began with an 'if'. It is clearly hypothetical and out of order.

Government senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is no point of order. I am not asking for agreement on my right either with Senator Bob Brown or with me. The question will be allowed to stand. The minister should address the question that has been asked as it pertains to the portfolio.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I cannot assist the senator with what may or may not be part of the government's announcement, although I have no doubt that when it is made there will be a great many questions asked in this place and the senator will have a substantial amount of opportunity to ask me and other members of the government about these and other issues. On the general issue of transitional assistance, the senator will know that one of the reasons the government in its previous package sought to provide free permits was as transitional assistance, recognising the importance of sensible transitioning of the economy. As we are a Labor government and our focus is first on jobs, we obviously did want to ensure sensible assistance. In terms of the incentive to abate, Senator, I am happy to discuss that in future questions.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. I ask the minister if, after almost four years involved in this job, with the resources of a special department of the government to look at these things, her inability now to answer even these basic questions demonstrates that the carbon tax proposed has nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with the Gillard government's debt crisis.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That question is from a man who follows a leader who pretends to be a conviction politician while arguing for a plebiscite that he said he would ignore. What sort of conviction politician says, 'I so care about this issue so much the people should decide, but, by the way, I'll ignore it.' That completely exposes both the senator and Mr Abbott for what they are. They are far more interested in playing a short-term political game, trying to be destructive and negative, than acting in the long-term national interest.

We on this side understand that the challenge of climate change will not disappear because some people on that side are not prepared to face up to it. We on this side and other members of this parliament are prepared to take that responsibility. It is not an easy policy challenge but it is not one that should continue to be ducked because some people want to play a few political games. (Time expired)

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. During question time I asked you to rule on an interjection from Senator Joyce. That was shouted out, and it was clearly heard by the member, who did not take offence but had every right to. I ask you to check the Hansard to see if that interjection is audible and then to rule on whether it is.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Let me just clarify one thing. I did not hear any interjection and I made that quite clear. If it was audible it was certainly not audible to me. I will undertake to check the Hansard, but let's make it quite clear: I did not hear it.

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on the point of order. I made a reference to a bottle. If that was offensive, I withdraw. There you go, Senator Brown—happy?

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, that's not it.

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That was it, you goose.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The President has already undertaken to review the tape, and it will be left in the hands of the President.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I rise on a point of order. Senator Joyce's response just then really was not appropriate. He ought to withdraw the way in which he just spoke to a fellow senator.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! When the chamber comes to order—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Order! Senator Joyce, I did not hear what you said at the end of your statement, but it has been reported to me, and Senator Wong has asked you to withdraw. If you did refer in an unparliamentary way to a colleague, I would ask you to withdraw.

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I did refer to him as a goose, and I withdraw that.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! We are not going to proceed until there is order.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I ask that further questions be placed on the Notice Paper.