Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, Senator Wong. I refer to Senator Wong's reply to Senator Cormann, where she said that pollution is free. Does she therefore believe that coal is free, fuel is free and power is free? Additionally, I refer to the Prime Minister's comments that a carbon tax will not increase the prices for families, trades and small businesses.

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Joyce is entitled to be heard.

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I refer to the Prime Minister's comments yesterday that the carbon tax will not increase petrol prices for families, tradies and small businesses. Can the minister confirm that the electricity that oil refineries and service stations use will be exempt from the carbon tax? If not, won't the carbon taxes applied to these sectors increase the petrol price in contravention of the Prime Minister's promise?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will seek to answer the parts of that question I can. I will answer what I think was the first part of the question. The question related to pollution being free. I think the economic point is that unless you price pollution there is no incentive to reduce it. It is a very simple economic point: unless you price pollution there is no incentive to reduce it. Currently there is no incentive—

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Bernardi and Senator Faulkner, it would be very helpful to Senator Joyce—

Honourable senators interjecting—

He was not on the phone, I can assure you.

Senator Faulkner interjecting—

You are now; I will concede that.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was making the point about price signals that as long as pollution is free there is no incentive to reduce it. I think that is, frankly, self-evident. The whole reason that you put a price on pollution is to give a price signal incentive to business to reduce its pollution and to look to find lower-polluting ways of doing business and to give an incentive to invest in clean energy and in cleaner technologies. We are a very highly carbon-intensive economy. That is as a result of the nature of our economy. That means we have to transition if we agree that we have to reduce pollution. As I recall it, the opposition agree on that.

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order regarding relevance. She seems to be eluding the question. Does she believe that they use electricity in the refining of fuel, or not?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Joyce, there is no point of order. It was a far-ranging question. I believe that Senator Wong is addressing the question or questions. Senator Wong, you have 45 seconds remaining.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was making a point about why we want to try to give an incentive to business to reduce its pollution and to invest in clean energy, cleaner ways of doing business and cleaner goods and services. In relation to price impacts the government has been clear: there is a price impact once you price something that is currently free. That is obvious. The question is: how do you do it, and how do you ensure that you assist Australian households? How do you ensure that you look to lower-income families and how do you provide tax cuts and increases in payments to recognise that price impact? We are up-front about that, Senator Joyce, unlike you who are imposing a tax on Australian families to fund your direct action policy.

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. In this I will be very specific. The Prime Minister mentioned that families, tradies and small businesses will be exempt. Will the government claim an exemption for farmers or will they pay a higher price for diesel under the carbon tax? Will you or won't you be exempting diesel for farmers?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I have said on a number of occasions, the government will be announcing the details of its carbon package on Sunday. I will say this: Mr Abbott at least had a rare moment of honesty last night on the 7:30 Report when he acknowledged that the coalition's commitment, which is also to a five per cent reduction, will involve a cost to the budget—

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. The minister has confirmed that she is not prepared to answer the question, so everything she says from that point forward is irrelevant and you should sit her down.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is not a point of order.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is unsurprising that Senator Joyce is embarrassed by his policy and embarrassed by the reminder that he also is in a party that supports a five per cent reduction by 2020. The only difference is that their policy will cost taxpayers money and will cost the budget money. Senator Joyce, this is some $30 billion out to 2020 to make a five per cent reduction. I would be interested to know from Senator Joyce whether farmers will be exempt from spending cuts or tax hikes to fund that policy. (Time expired)

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is a new form of question time where, apparently, the minister asks me questions! Mr President, I have a further supplementary question. Can the minister confirm whether interstate truck companies, which I know Senator Sterle will be very interested in, will pay a higher price for diesel under the carbon tax by reducing the fuel excise rebate they claim? How large will a transport company need to be before they are up for a higher diesel price under the carbon tax?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am afraid I was not able to hear the person's name to whom Senator Joyce was quoting—

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

He usually quotes himself!

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Joyce, do you have a point of order?

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The person I was quoting was Senator Sterle. He is just behind you. He was in the Transport Workers Union—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Joyce, resume your seat. Senator Wong, continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The government has made clear that families, tradies and small business will not pay a carbon price on petrol—not now, nor in the future. In relation to other aspects of the package, including—

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. This question is absolutely about interstate truck companies and whether they will pay a higher price for diesel. I do not know whether the minister intends to answer that question or whether she does not intend to answer that question.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is not part of a point of order. You did take a point of order. The minister has 30 seconds remaining to address the question that has been asked. Minister, you have 30 seconds now remaining on the clock.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What I was trying to assist Senator Joyce with was what the government has made clear, which is that families, tradies and small businesses will not pay a carbon price on petrol—not now or in the future—and that is a commitment relating to petrol, diesel and LPG for passenger motor vehicles and light commercial vehicles. The Prime Minister has outlined the reasons why. But, in relation to further details, obviously these will be available after the government has announced them. (Time expired)