Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Murray Darling Basin) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer and Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, Senator Wong. Can the minister explain what specific international action the Treasury modelling of the Gillard government's carbon tax assumes will take place in both the period up until 2020 and the period beyond 2020?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is always good to get a question from Senator Birmingham, who used to want to support a price on carbon and now, in his desire to move one seat forward, is very happily participating—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Macdonald.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevancy. This minister again is spending the first half of her answer attacking the questioner. Can you please bring her to order and ask her to answer the question?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is not a point of order. I was drawing the minister's attention to—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Order on both sides! I was drawing the minister's attention to come to the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. I am interested that Senator Macdonald is always so sensitive on Senator Birmingham's behalf. He obviously feels a need to protect him.

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Wong, resume your seat. I cannot hear your answer. When there is silence on both sides we will proceed.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have no doubt that Senator Birmingham, being an assiduous reader of Treasury documents, would have read the Treasury modelling which was released. The assumptions on a whole range of issues, including the extent of international action, are described in the document itself. The core policy scenario assumes that nations—

Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Who says it is a silver bullet? I got your attention.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Resume your seat, Senator Wong. When there is silence we will proceed. I remind honourable senators on both sides—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Senators Sterle and Macdonald, if you wish to debate it the time is after question time. You know that.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I was saying, the core policy scenario in the Treasury modelling assumes that countries meet the low-end commitments for 2020 that they made at the Copenhagen and the Cancun conferences. This is the equivalent of assuming Australia will meet its bipartisan five per cent target by 2020. I remind those opposite that it is like assuming this nation will meet the target that both parties have committed to, although I note at this point that the opposition's policy to meet the five per cent will, in fact, cost more. It will cost $1,300 per year per Australian household. It is a policy which will increase expenses for Australian taxpayers. The approach taken by Treasury is the same approach taken in comparable modelling exercises by organisations such as the OECD, and the commitments on which this is predicated are the clearest evidence that we have of what other countries intend to do to tackle climate change. (Time expired)

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Murray Darling Basin) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I have a supplementary question for Minister Wong. I note the minister did not address the period beyond 2020 and I refer the minister to statements made by Treasury officials to the inquiry into the carbon tax bills that they have modelled a scheme for after 2020, where countries make the same emissions reductions as each other, relative to their business as usual path, by the same amount as Australia. Is it correct that Treasury modelling assumes all countries make the same reductions against business as usual after 2020? If so, what is the amount of that reduction?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Let us understand what the question is proposing. The opposition is suggesting that another reason to oppose this bill, to which they are already so implacably opposed, is because of something which may or may not happen between 2020 and 2050. We know something that is likely to happen in the decades ahead if the world, including Australia, does not act on climate change—that is, climate change will worsen and the economy in this nation and globally will be hit by that. Those on that side—

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! I will give the minister the call when there is silence.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Senators Sherry and Joyce, I am waiting.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise on a point of order on direct relevance, Mr President. The question was specific: whether or not there was an assumption and what was the amount of the reduction. The minister has done nothing but critique the question. She has not attempted to answer the question. She has not approached the question, let alone been directly relevant to it. You should bring her to the question.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I believe the minister is answering the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said, the Treasury modelling is quite transparent in the various assumptions it makes. As I have outlined, it makes assumptions consistent with the approach taken by analogous modelling exercises such as those undertaken by the OECD. But the point is the opposition do not care about the modelling. (Time expired)

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Murray Darling Basin) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I have a further supplementary question for Minister Wong. Is it not true that the Treasury modelling of the Gillard government's carbon tax assumes all countries engage in an 80 per cent reduction in emissions against business as usual between 2020 and 2050? Given the minister's personal experience of events like the Copenhagen conference, does the minister agree that this is a most heroic assumption on which to punt Australia's future?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, Mr President, the heroic assumption is that at some point the opposition might actually care about the national interest. That would be an heroic assumption. The heroic assumption would be that at some point, instead of running around talking about pledges written in blood, those opposite might actually care about public policy and reform for the future. The heroic assumption might be that those on the other side, who are part of a policy to put a price on carbon, might discover their consciences at some point and recall that they went to an election promising this for the same reasons.

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister will resume her seat. Order!

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The heroic assumption would be that someone on the other side might actually care enough about proper reform in this country that they would move beyond the scare campaign that they are running. The Treasury modelling that we have put out shows that we can grow our economy, increase our incomes, increase jobs and reduce pollution from what it otherwise might be. That is what the modelling shows. That is what those on the other side do not wish to— (Time expired)