Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate—

  (a)   expresses confidence in the President's handling of the recent privileges issue for which Senator Kroger sought precedence; and

  (b)   notes with dismay the criticisms by the Leader of the Australian Greens (Senator Bob Brown) of the President, both in the Senate chamber on 19 March 2012 and at the Senate doors on 20 March 2012.

Anne McEwen (SA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I seek leave to move an amendment to the motion.

Leave not granted.

Mr President, I seek leave to make a short statement of no more than one minute.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Leave is granted for one minute.

Anne McEwen (SA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The government expresses confidence in the President's handling of the request for precedence in relation to a motion by Senator Kroger on 23 November 2011, notes that decisions to refer matters to the Privileges Committee are made by the Senate and notes the Privileges Committee findings relating to Senator Bob Brown and Senator Milne that the evidence did not support the contention set out in the terms of reference and that no question of contempt arises.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I seek leave to make a short statement.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Leave is granted for one minute.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, this matter has been largely dealt with in a dissent motion from your ruling at the time. It is being revisited by Senator Abetz because he has had a quite substantial win in this matter—that through the Privileges Committee Senator Milne and I have been found totally innocent of the charges that were made but left with a $70,000 bill to pay. That is a matter for—

Opposition senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Brown, resume your seat. I am giving you the call, but you are entitled to be heard in silence.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It was a SLAPP writ. It was entirely successful; it went, through your reference and your advice, to the committee. Senator Abetz has called this a 'legal folly', but let me warn every other member of the chamber that the opportunity comes here for people to move against each other on completely concocted charges, as we saw here, and then leave the senators with that impost. It is a complete breakdown of natural justice.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I seek leave to make a statement for one minute.

Leave not granted.

Pursuant to contingent notice of motion, I move:

That so much of standing orders be suspended as would prevent the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate from making a statement for one minute.

Having moved that, that now allows me to make a five-minute statement—a very clever tactic by the Australian Greens! This is a bad day and a bad week, and getting even worse, for the Leader of the Australian Greens. Let us be very clear what my original motion is all about. The motion is not about the privileges issue. It is a motion to express dismay at the deliberate denigration of you and your office, Mr President. Senator Brown on 19 March 2012 made this reference, recorded in Hansard:

… it went past this inadequate President …

With great respect, that was a reflection and should have been withdrawn. Mr President, you may have forgiven the Leader of the Australian Greens for making such a reflection on you because he was upset. In the heat of the moment he may have made that comment. But then, in a very deliberate and considered doorstop interview the very next morning, he said this to the media:

… and this current very poor presidential management of the Senate, and I just have to note it because there will be more of it.

Mr President, you and I will not always agree, but there is one thing that I will accept and that is that you, like most of us in this place, do our very, very best to ensure that the standing orders and the conventions of this place are upheld. All of us from time to time are disappointed by presidential rulings—that is the way of the world—but the Leader of the Australian Greens then so personally attacked the President and, let us not forget, also then personally attacked the Clerk of the Senate, who has no right to respond in this place.

We have seen a vicious lashing out by the Leader of the Australian Greens at everybody that steps in his way. It is the hate media one day, it is the President of the Senate the next, it is the Clerk of the Senate the next, it is somebody else the next day—Senator Kroger in fact—and every now and then I am the culprit as well. Those of us in public life do expect that from time to time we will cross swords with Senator Brown. It is completely unacceptable to denigrate the Clerk of the Senate in such a cowardly and unacceptable fashion, but it is also completely unacceptable to reflect on the President of the Senate in the manner that he did, not only in the heat of the moment in the Senate but in such a cold, deliberate, calculated way at his doorstop interview the very next morning. We believe that this issue does need to be dealt with because, if order is to be maintained in this place, we need senators to behave in a manner that does not allow for the denigration of the office of President and the holder of that office from time to time. It is fundamentally important and that is why we, as a coalition, have moved this motion to express confidence, Mr President, in your handling of the privileges matter and also to note with dismay the criticisms made by the Leader of the Australian Greens, both in this place and in a media interview.

I must say I was somewhat surprised that the Australian Labor Party did seek to amend the motion. I note they have not pursued the amendment, which would have deleted the references to the denigration of the President. I simply remind them it is their President, a Labor Party President. We, as a coalition, extend as much as we possibly can our bipartisan support for the position and the particular occupant of that position. I ask the Australian Labor Party to give very serious consideration that any vote against the motion that I am suggesting today would be a potential unfortunate reflection by them on their President. I would be delighted if this matter could now move to a vote.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, what a pathetic effort that was. I thought we would hear some defence of this motion from Senator Abetz that had some cogency and relevance to the proceedings of this Senate but, of course, it had none. The first thing that needs to be said here, Sir—and you will agree with this—is that the chair is not beyond criticism and the Senate prevails.

What Senator Abetz is trying to do here is say to this great Senate—after 110 years of its history—that it should be nobbled in taking on the chair. The opposition would, wouldn't they. They would want the jackboot to be brought into the Senate. That reflects the fact that the Senate is probably at the lowest ebb of behaviour and control that it has been in those 110 years, under this chair, with this rabble of an opposition—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As you can see at the moment. Senator Abetz used the word 'cowardly'. He can take that with a capital C. Isn't this the senator who gave notice of a motion here that the Clerk's performance should be put to a vote just this week? That is unprecedented in Senate history, but dragged down to that level by Senator Abetz and his colleagues. I have no doubt that wiser counsel prevailed and he withdrew that totally derogatory motion as it has not appeared here before the Senate. It should never have been put up, but it is an indication of the level to which Senator Abetz and his crew, with this chair, have taken this Senate.

On the matter of the running of the Senate, the simple matter is that I withdrew three references to the committee on those braying opposite who have connections with donors and so on. They were not referenced through to the committee. But when it came to the Greens and Senator Milne and I, it was referenced to the committee. As a result of that, a huge amount of time was taken up by the committee to find that the charges that came from Senator Abetz were totally baseless. The chair had let them through. I expect that, whatever advice was given to the chair, that was adopted. I have not heard anything to the opposite. As a result of that, Senator Milne and I are left with a $70,000 legal fee. That is totally contrary to natural justice. Two senators proven innocent by the committee are left with that legislation and then Senator Abetz, who was trained as a lawyer—

Opposition senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Bob Brown, you are entitled to be heard in silence.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I do not mind them braying over there. They know how wrong they are. That is the simple matter of it, Mr President. They know that they will be able to keep shouting all the way down to the line and they know that they have had a victory on this. They have left that impost on two innocent senators, through that reference which you recommended to the committee chair, and we will bear it. That is where the chamber has got to under this presiding officer with this rabble of an opposition for which no rule is not meant to be changed in order for them to prosecute a quarrel and to prosecute the base political level to which this chamber has come with Senator Abetz, Senator Brandis and the people who do their bidding like Senator Kroger and Senator Cash. That is the way it is. That is the way it must be. There will be review back on this.

Opposition senators interjecting—

You can hear them braying now. Some of the execrable comments that are allowed by the chair right now would not be allowed if I was yelling out at a speaker on the other side. But that is what we have in this chamber in 2012, the lowest ebb in the whole of its history. That is where we are at. This motion cannot be upheld in its current form because it would simply traduce the reality of what is happening in this Senate in 2012, Mr President. It would be a very bad look indeed. Of course, you have Senator Abetz as your chief supporter in this chamber, as we can see through this motion. You live with that, Sir; I will live with the opposition he sends in my direction.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I just want to make it very clear—as the Government Whip, Senator McEwen, did—that the government has every confidence in you as President and every confidence in the decision you made, which was supported by the chamber, to give precedence to the referral of the matters that were referred to the Privileges Committee in relation to Senators Brown and Milne. I also want to make it clear that the government support the Senate Clerk and reject the criticisms made of her and the clerks. We think it is a very poor development where senators seek to impugn the reputation of the Clerk.

I also note that the Privileges Committee found there was no case to answer against Senators Brown and Milne, and I think the finding confirmed that this was a political attack rather than—

Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting—

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on a point of order: Senator Macdonald is yelling 'gutless' and so on across the chamber while I am trying to listen to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. I ask you to have him desist.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There should be silence in the chamber so senators can listen to the debate.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I think that reference was politically motivated and I think it has been appropriate that the Privileges Committee has done its job, as it always has in the past, with independence and a bipartisan approach to making sure that we protect the privileges of the Senate, and I congratulate it on its work.

Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting—

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on a point of order: the invective keeps coming from Liberal Senator Macdonald.

Opposition senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Brown is on his feet taking a point of order.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Order! Senator Brown.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Interjections are disorderly and I ask you—

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! On both sides! I need to hear Senator Brown in silence.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I withdraw the point of order. It will make no difference in this chamber.

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Brown, you did raise a matter. I just want to make one point clear. From this end of the chamber, when the voices are directed down the other end of the chamber, it is very difficult to hear what people might say. If I am able to detect that there is something that is being said and order should be maintained, then I will maintain order. But there are some times when it is just impossible to detect comments that are being made. I am not trying to get out of anything; I make no apology. That is the construct of the chamber. All interjections are disorderly.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

They are, and it is possible to see when interjections are being made from the chair. And no senator has a privilege over—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Wait a minute.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Sit down.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, Senator Brown. You have got the call. It is a point of order. Senator Brown.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, there is no point. The interjections keep coming and I will allow—

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Can I remind all senators that interjections are disorderly. Senator Macdonald.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Could I raise a point of order. Where do the standing orders allow a senator to rise in his place and, without leave, just have a bit of a chat? The senator involved thinks there is one rule for himself and another rule for everyone else, but I ask you to sit him down unless he has a point of order.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is not a point of order. Senator Evans.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, the government does not believe that the important role of the Privileges Committee should be called into question by the politicisation of the processes. We will not be supporting the Liberal motion that is the subject of the suspension; nor will we be supporting the Greens motions that were tabled referring three other matters to the Privileges Committee. We do not think the political tit for tat that is occurring is an appropriate way for senators to treat the important role of the Privileges Committee. We do not think that any of this is enhancing the reputation of the Senate or the reputation of senators. I again note that the Privileges Committee found that there was no case to answer for Senators Brown and Milne, and I do not think that further referral of matters in a politically-charged atmosphere, without real cause for those referrals, is an appropriate way for the Senate to proceed.

The Privileges Committee report did find both Senators Milne and Brown to have nothing to answer for. The Privileges Committee also found that the question of the granting of precedence, which is at the heart of much of the dispute here, ought to be referred to the Procedure Committee for consideration. I think that is the appropriate course of action. I think that during the break the Procedure Committee ought to seriously look at this issue of how precedence is granted, in accordance with the Privileges Committee recommendation. That would certainly be our intention, and I think that is the appropriate way for the chamber to deal with these things.

Mr President, I conclude by saying that we think you acted perfectly appropriately in the way you handled these matters. We think the clerks have discharged their duties perfectly appropriately. We think we ought to move on and focus on issues of importance to the Australian people. I move:

That the motion be put.

Question agreed to.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question now is that the motion moved by Senator Abetz be agreed to.

Question negatived.

Nick Xenophon (SA, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I ask that the question be divided and that paragraphs (a) and (b) be put separately.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is a request that I can entertain, Senator Xenophon.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I seek leave to make a short statement.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Leave is granted for one minute.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, at the very heart of this motion is the expression of confidence in your handling of the recent privileges issue, which has been so derogatorily referred to by Senator Bob Brown, referring to 'Your very poor presidential management' and saying that there would be more of it. Previously he referred to 'this inadequate President'. If the Senate is going to have any respect for the position of President and the current occupant of it, this motion is in fact a job lot. If you do express confidence, how on earth can you then not express dismay? And it was not even a motion of condemnation or censure; it was simply an issue of dismay. These two matters are inextricably interlinked.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I understand that Senator Xenophon has sought that the motion be split into two parts. The two parts would be, I presume, part (a) being put and then part (b), in which case, in motion 723, the first paragraph is the question that is being put before the Senate.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There has been no agreement by the—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Bob Brown, is this a point of order?

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes. I think you are about to agree to Senator Xenophon's request, but the chamber has not given assent to that.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is at the discretion of the chair, Senator Bob Brown.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Then the chair may use your discretion on the matter.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes.

Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In which case I find myself in the unfamiliar territory of agreeing with Senator Abetz, in that the motion should be put in toto.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Xenophon has put a reasonable request before the chair. I believe that that should be acceded to. It is reasonable if Senator Xenophon wants to vote different ways on different parts of the matter. Senator Xenophon, is that the basis behind your request?

Nick Xenophon (SA, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, it is, Mr President.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will put the question. I will first put the question on paragraph (a), which is:

That the Senate—

(a)   expresses confidence in the President's handling of the recent privileges issue for which Senator Kroger sought precedence; …

The question therefore is that that be agreed to.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question now is that paragraph (b) of motion 723 be agreed to.

Scott Ryan (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Small Business and Fair Competition) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. It is tradition, if I understand correctly, that when there is a dramatic change in the voting composition on a motion there might be a four-minute bell beforehand. I am aware that was only a one-minute bell and there was a substantial change in the composition of the voting patterns in the chamber.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I hear what you say, Senator Scott Ryan. I believe that the bells being rung for one minute on that occasion was the appropriate way to go, as the standing orders provide.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I raise a point of order on your ruling—only to indicate and to put on record that there are far more than 22 people who supported your ruling and who were in accord with that. Some people could not make it to the chamber.