Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, Senator Wong. I refer the minister to her answer to my question on Monday where she said that free permits would reduce the cost impact of the carbon tax for the most emissions-intensive trade-exposed industries. Can the minister advise the Senate how many of Australia's 42,500-plus exporting businesses, who are facing additional electricity price rises and other increases in their cost of doing business as a direct result of Labor's carbon tax, will receive such free permits?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Well certainly not as many as would have received a tax cut if those opposite had not indicated that they would vote with the Greens to oppose a tax cut. Let us remember that those opposite, if they are interested in talking about tax policy when it comes to businesses—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

How many? Come to the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will come to the question, Senator.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Come to the question now.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If they are interested in talking about—

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You are required to be directly relevant.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You don't like the fact that I am on my feet, do you?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Wong, your comments should be addressed to myself as the chair and not across the chamber. Senator Wong, continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. I am simply making the point that there are a range of prices and taxes in the economy and that those opposite profess to care about business but in fact were to combine with Bob Brown to vote down a tax cut for their constituency.

In terms of what was the emissions-intensive trade-exposed, and now I think is the Jobs and Competitiveness Program, those permits are allocated on the basis of emissions intensity. All of that is in the public arena.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. Earlier this week the minister asserted that free carbon permits would reduce the cost of the carbon tax impact on exporting businesses. I asked a very specific question: how many of the 42,500-plus exporting businesses will actually receive such free permits? There is only one answer that can be directly relevant to that question, and that is a number. Either the minister knows what the number is or she does not. There is nothing else that can be directly relevant to that question.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I cannot instruct the minister how to answer the question.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

But you can sit her down.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! As I have said on numerous occasions, I cannot instruct the minister how to answer the question. You may well have an answer to the question fixed in your mind, but I—

Senator Abetz interjecting—

Wait a minute. Previous Presidents have ruled consistently that they cannot instruct the minister how to answer the question. I have been listening to the minister's response. I believe the minister is answering the question. The minister has one minute and two seconds remaining to address the question, and I call upon the minister to address the question.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, from time to time you have recourse to quoting rulings of former Presidents. Former Presidents never had the sessional order which required compliance to direct relevance. Therefore, with great respect, yet again, Mr President, the coalition makes this plea to you that if the changed sessional order, which we just confirmed again the other day, is to be implemented then recourse to previous rulings clearly cannot apply to sessional orders that were not in existence at that time.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That was not relevant to what I just said, but—

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, it was.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So the answer is relevant but I am not?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I had ruled that I cannot instruct the minister how to answer the question. That is consistent with the way this chamber has been ruled over a long period of time. I am aware of the sessional order that you refer to and I have drawn the minister's attention to the question and the fact that the minister does have one minute and two seconds remaining to answer the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President, Perhaps I could be of assistance by explaining how the program works. The program works by way—

Opposition senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If I could perhaps answer the question, rather than just have—

Opposition senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Interjections do not help.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The program works by establishing eligibility and baselines and those are worked through by the department with industry, including with the independent expert advisory panel. Firms would then need to apply for eligibility under the program in accordance with those established baselines and eligibility criteria. So I do not have a particular number within each sector as to how many firms there are. I can give you an indication. For example—

Opposition senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Go on, Minister, continue to answer the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I do not think they are interested in the answer because they are continuing to interject.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, you have got four seconds.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What I can indicate is that—

Jacinta Collins (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Parliamentary Secretary for School Education and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On one second! Seriously?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I raise a point of order. The opposition has given this minister all the latitude in the world. As Senator Collins just pointed out in her interjection, there is only one second left in the answer. The only thing that the minister has not said, but still has time to say in the remaining second of her answer, is to answer the only thing she was asked: the number of businesses to which these permits will issue. That is what she was asked, even if, consistently with your ruling, everything else that she has said so far can be regarded as preamble or context, she can now only answer the question or admit she is ignorant of her own portfolio.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order: it is of no consequence whether Senator Brandis thinks he has given Senator Wong enough latitude. While his personal views are, of course, of interest, they have no relevance to how the Senate is conducted. I would point out in response to the—

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Tony Sheldon was right!

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am glad to hear that is where you are getting your advice from, Senator. Senator Wong actually answered the question and perhaps the senators opposite did not hear it because Senator Cormann, who asked the question, continually shouts across the chamber at Senator Wong as she tries to answer it. Therefore, he is probably not able to hear the answer. If the opposition is serious about wanting answers they ought to listen to the answer and not constantly interject on the minister.

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! I still have one second remaining on the clock.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. Given the finding by the TD Securities-Melbourne Institute monthly inflation gauge that due to the introduction of the carbon tax from 1 July the price of electricity rose by 14.9 per cent and gas and other fuel prices increased by 10.3 per cent, how many of Australia's two million small businesses, facing those sorts of electricity price rises and other cost increases directly as a result of Labor's biggest carbon tax in the world here in Australia, will receive free permits?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said in my earlier answer, which it appears they did not hear because they were so busy shouting, I am not able to give the precise numbers of each firm within each industry. I am not able to give precise answers about how many businesses within each sector, within each industry, are eligible in terms of the criteria. Those criteria are public and they have been worked through by an independent advisory committee. I can give the opposition and the Senate an indication of the sorts of industries and activities which have been determined to be emissions-intensive trade-exposed and they, of course, include aluminium, steel, glass, paper and a range of others. I do not have figures with me about the number of firms conducting activities within each of those industries, which I made clear in my first answer.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister's answer raises a further supplementary question. Why is the Gillard government so intent to press ahead with the world's biggest carbon tax when it imposes an increased cost burden on 23 million Australians, which is five times higher than the overall cost burden imposed on more than 500 million people in Europe. Is the government really so out of touch to think that no amount of additional taxation in Australia will have an impact on our economic fortunes and on our cost of living?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

With respect, Mr President, I do not think there was a question in that. That was the same rant, to be frank, we have heard for two years, so I am not sure how I can be directly relevant to a rant. I am not sure how I can be directly relevant to a statement that includes a number of untruths and a number of incorrect factual assertions, so if the opposition want to have a directly relevant debate I am very happy to have one, but why don't you start telling the truth? Why don't you start telling the truth and talking about the facts? But, no, you will keep going on about industries being shut down, Whyalla being wiped off the map, and the sky falling in. Australians know you are not telling the truth.

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! When we have silence on both sides we will proceed.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said, I went through yesterday for about the 50th time in this chamber about how the assertion by the opposition about the imposition of this tax is incorrect. Yesterday, the Climate Commission went through the number of nations who will be— (Time expired).