Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Wong. I refer to the 900 job losses in Australia's second largest export sector announced by Australia's two largest coal producers yesterday. Can the minister confirm that, consistent with the government's assumptions in its 2012-13 budget, Australia's coal producers are required to pay carbon taxes in excess of $2.7 billion over the next three years even after taking into account the assistance provided under the coal sector jobs package? Can the minister nominate a single top-10 coal-producing country in the world that currently applies, or plans to introduce, a carbon tax on fugitive emissions generated by the mining of coal, as is imposed under the Labor-Greens carbon tax? If not, how can the government possibly think it is fair to make Australian exporters less competitive internationally and to put workers' jobs at risk as a direct result of its carbon tax?

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! When there is silence we will proceed.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Only part of that was a question properly directed to the Treasurer. In relation to questions about carbon I would remind the senator that Senator Ludwig—

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. The minister has just queried whether the question was appropriately directed to her as minister representing the Treasurer. The economic point of order—

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! On both sides!

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, the minister has invited you effectively to rule out part of my question as being inappropriately directed to her as representing the Treasurer. The economic impact of the carbon tax—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! This is now debating the issue, Senator Cormann.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, I am raising a point of order. This is a very important point of order, because the minister—

Government senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! On my right—I need order!

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister has effectively suggested that questions in relation to the economic impact of the carbon tax and the impact of the carbon tax on international competitiveness and on jobs in Australia are not appropriately directed to the Treasury portfolio. The questions that I asked were directly relevant to the revenue and spending assumptions in the budget and, as such, the minister should be required—

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Even Barnaby is objecting!

Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! No, Senator Joyce, I have Senator Cormann on his feet for a point of order.

Doug Cameron (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Just do what you're told, same as what Tony told you!

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order—Senator Cameron! I am waiting for order.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As such, the minister should be required to answer all of the question instead of unilaterally ruling part of the question out of order without even asking you to make a ruling.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have listened to your point of order and there is no point of order. There is a new point of order.

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. What the question—

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Wait a minute, Senator Ludwig. Order!

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is a new point of order. This issue was not raised by Senator Wong. In truth, the question that was asked should have been directed at the representative, me, handling climate change, and not to the Treasurer. It was clearly a question about climate change. Although the sceptics on the other side do not believe it, they did ask a question about the carbon price and the question should be directed to me.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have ruled on the issue already. There was no point of order. The minister can answer that part of the question that relates to the portfolio. That has always been the way in which this chamber has operated.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. That in fact is what I was going on to say: that I am happy to take those aspects of the question which are properly directed to the Treasurer's portfolio. However, I would have thought that the extent of the carbon price being paid by particular coalmines is clearly a matter within the climate change portfolio. In fact, I answered maybe 100 or 200 of those questions previously.

But in relation to the issue of jobs and job losses I would make this point: we have an unemployment rate of 5.1 per cent. I have recently returned from a trip overseas, including to the APEC finance ministers meeting, and let me tell you that there is no other advanced economy that can look at an unemployment rate like the one Australia has. No other advanced economy has grown 11 per cent since prior to the global financial crisis. So those opposite might like to come in here and talk gloom and doom when it comes to jobs and investment, and talk down the economy because they think it is in their political interest. We will get on with the job of creating jobs.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. My point of order is that the minister is not being directly relevant to the question. The question was directed to the effect of the carbon tax assumptions in the budget on employment. The minister has not addressed the issue of the effect of the carbon tax assumptions in the budget on unemployment.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I believe that the minister is answering the question. The minister does have 46 seconds remaining to answer the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In terms of what has occurred in the economy since carbon pricing has been announced, we see in the year to June that private investment has grown now to be at its highest percentage of GDP in 40 years. The highest percentage of GDP in 40 years! These are the sorts of facts which fly in the way of a scare campaign that those opposite wish to engage in. They believe it is in their political interest to talk down the Australian economy. The only people who are pleased with job losses are those on that side, because they think it is in their political interest. But if he really wants to learn about job losses I suggest that Senator Cormann wanders along to Queensland and has a chat to Mr Abbott's mate, Premier Newman, as he busily gets rid of— (Time expired)

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. When Treasury assessed the economic and fiscal impact of the carbon tax, did they consider that the European emissions trading scheme does not apply to the fugitive emissions from coalmining? Did Treasury consider that the Chinese, Indonesian and Colombian coalmining sectors do not pay, or expect to pay, a carbon price on their fugitive emissions? And did Treasury consider that the American surface coalmines are not even required to report fugitive emissions, let alone pay carbon tax on them?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, many aspects of that question asked about international pricing of carbon, which—

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I specifically asked if Treasury considered—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If you would let me finish, Senator Cormann. These are questions which are more properly addressed to Senator Ludwig—

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Because this is on the economic impact of the carbon tax—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I do not know why it is such a problem to ask Senator Ludwig questions. He is very good at answering them. You always tell me how bad I am at answering them and now, quite clearly, Senator Ludwig could answer them—

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. As you have ruled before on several occasions, it is not proper for ministers to comment on the questions. The question that Senator Cormann asked had three parts, and each was directed to an inquiry as to whether Treasury—whom this minister represents here—took into consideration certain international comparators. She has not approached the question. She has done nothing but indicate that she is not prepared to answer the question because she asserts it should have been addressed to another minister. The fact is that only this minister can tell the Senate what Treasury took into account.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! I do draw the minister's attention to the question. The minister has 41 seconds remaining.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In terms of what Treasury did and did not take into account, as the senator would know, we have published the Treasury modelling and the assumptions contained within that. It contains a great deal of information, including the assumptions about policy action taken in other countries.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. In this context, I refer the minister to her response to my question yesterday, when she said she stands by the Treasury modelling of the carbon tax. Does that mean the minister stands by the warning in the Treasury modelling that the Australian mining sector will experience a significant decline in rates of return and that investment in coalmining will fall by nearly 13 per cent by 2020? How can Australians avoid the conclusion that this government is knowingly and recklessly destroying jobs in Australia's second most important export sector?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If Senator Cormann wants to talk about destroying jobs, I suggest he go to Queensland and talk to Premier Newman and the thousands of public servants he said he would not sack and is now proposing to sack. He wants to ask about jobs. How many jobs have been created since we came to government? How much investment is there?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. You heard the question. You should rule that comments on what may or may not be happening in the Queensland Public Service bear no relevance whatsoever, directly or indirectly, to a question about Treasury modelling of the carbon tax.

Jacinta Collins (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Parliamentary Secretary for School Education and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on the point of order: once again I need to raise the habit that Senator Brandis seems to be continuing again today. He reframes the question. He narrows it to the one thing that has stuck in his mind, rather than the broader question that, it seems, has been asked time and time again. Senator Wong is referring to—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Queensland Public Service, you goose!

Jacinta Collins (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Parliamentary Secretary for School Education and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It seems Senator Brandis will not even allow someone to conclude their comments on a point of order. Senator Wong is referring to the Treasury modelling and, indeed, the impact on the economy and jobs. She has done that in relation to the principal question and the first supplementary. If she were allowed to continue, you might get some of the question answered.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister has been going 13 seconds. I do draw the minister's attention to the question. You have 47 seconds remaining.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The reality is that we have seen some announcements in the mining sector in relation to job cuts, and the thoughts of those on this side of the chamber are with the workers and families affected by—

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, you are entitled to be heard in silence. Order! Senator Wong, continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. The thoughts of people on this side of the chamber are with the workers and families who are affected by those decisions. Unlike those opposite, we would not seek to make political mileage of it. Unlike those opposite, we will focus on the sound economic management which has seen Australia with the lowest unemployment of almost any advanced economy and has seen the economy grow by 11 per cent and private investment at the highest level as a share of GDP in 40 years.