George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Senator Bob Carr) to a question without notice asked by Senator Fierravanti-Wells today relating to the United Nations Convention Against Corruption.

We had a remarkable occurrence in the Senate at the beginning of question time when Senator Fierravanti-Wells asked about the United Nations Convention on Corruption and its domestic application within Australia, in particular to state and territory governments. The question was asked of a minister who was the Premier of New South Wales, the second largest state government in Australia.

The second supplementary question, might I remind you, was this:

Does the minister feel compromised in advocating Australia's support for the convention in the international arena given that, at the time Australia became a signatory to the convention, he, as Premier of New South Wales, presided over a government riven by corruption, as revealed by the Eddie Obeid scandal?

What was remarkable was Senator Bob Carr's answer to that question. It was a one-word answer, a monosyllabic answer: no. Senator Carr did not want to go anywhere near this issue. So petrified was Senator Carr of going anywhere near this issue that, in answering Senator Fierravanti-Wells' question, he actually conceded the premise. He did not even trouble to dispute Senator Fierravanti-Wells's assertion in her question that he, as Premier of New South Wales, had presided over a government riven by corruption.

I am bound to say that when we drafted this question we thought that the government might take objection to it—that they might take objection to the assertion implicit in the question. But they let it go—

Kate Lundy (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Minister Assisting for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I rise on a point of order. Because of the way in which Senator Brandis is addressing this matter he is impugning something on Senator Bob Carr. I think it is inappropriate and I think you should rule it out of order. It is outrageous.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is a debating point, Senator Lundy. Senator Brandis, you have the call.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said, we thought, 'Perhaps the government will take umbrage at the question, with the assertion contained in it about Senator Carr's record as Premier of New South Wales.' Not only did they let it go by and pass without objection but Senator Carr himself let it pass without objection and merely said no, the shortest word he could think of, so that he could sit down at once—so fearful are the Australian Labor Party of opening up this issue.

The fact is that before the ICAC inquiry in Sydney today, and in recent days, the Australian public, and the New South Wales public in particular, have been astonished at revelation after revelation, which counsel assisting the inquiry has described as 'the greatest corruption scandal in New South Wales history since the days of the Rum Corps'. Do you know how much Mr Eddie Obeid and his family made out of a favourable re-zoning and a favourable ministerial decision by Mr Ian Macdonald—not our distinguished colleague Senator Ian Macdonald, but the corrupt Labor Party hack Mr Ian Macdonald? The ICAC hearing has heard that it was up to $100 million. And under whose period as the Premier of New South Wales, the leader of the Australian Labor Party and the senior politician of the New South Wales Right did Mr Eddie Obeid, Mr Ian Macdonald and Mr Joe Tripodi prosper? They prospered under the leadership of the now Senator Bob Carr.

It is all very well for Senator Bob Carr to flounce into the Senate and give us pious lectures about international relations. The real truth is that when Senator Bob Carr was the Premier of New South Wales he, at best, Horatio Nelson like, put the telescope up to his blind eye and said: 'Corruption, corruption? I don't see any corruption. Even though I'm the Premier, even though these are my ministers, even though this is happening on my watch, even though I have ministerial responsibility, I don't see any corruption.' Senator Bob Carr has a lot to answer for, as every single day's evidence in the ICAC hearing in Sydney reveals.

Mark Furner (Queensland, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is my pleasure to rise this afternoon to respond to questions provided by Minister Bob Carr. Firstly, Australia is a party to a number of international instruments aimed at combating corruption; and certainly, under international anti-corruption efforts, we have demonstrated our agenda, our needs and our commitment to making sure that that is put in place. We are also united in our efforts under the United Nations Convention against Corruption, the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime and the Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, on a point of order: my motion is to take note of the answer given by Senator Bob Carr to one question—not to other questions, such as those he referred to in his last answer to Senator Singh, but only the question asked of him by Senator Conchetta Fierravanti-Wells, and that question only asked about the United Nations Convention against Corruption.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I believe Senator Furner's answer is in order, he is relevant, as the question did go to the United Nations. Senator Furner, I draw your attention to the question, but you are in order and you have the call.

Mark Furner (Queensland, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr Deputy President; I am certain I was on that path. What astounds me today listening to Senator Brandis, a Queensland senator, is that he would no doubt be aware of corruption. I refer to governments that have been in place in the state of Queensland. Just today I was looking at The Moonlight State, about the Fitzgerald inquiry, which no doubt he would be quite familiar with in terms of what occurred.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, on a point of order. Truly, it is neither directly nor indirectly relevant to the motion to take note of an answer by Senator Carr to a question about the United Nations Convention against Corruption and the role of Senator Carr as Premier of New South Wales to be referring to events that took place in another state, at a different time, involving entirely different people.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Brandis. I do still rule that Senator Furner is within his rights to address the remarks that he is. I draw his attention to the answer given by Senator Carr, and that is what the debate is about. However, the question asked by Senator Fierravanti-Wells did contain matters pertaining to corruption and the United Nations, and in that context I will allow Senator Furner to continue.

Mark Furner (Queensland, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will be getting to the point of the United Nations Convention against Corruption later, as I alluded to in my opening comments. Senator Brandis must be embarrassed about the conduct of the current Liberal-National state government in Queensland and the degree of corruption they are involved in with respect to their nepotism and scurrilous behaviour in that state. You need only look at the conduct of the current arts minister, Ros Bates; the now dismissed, or retired, housing minister, Dr Flegg; the transport director, Michael Caltabiano; and a whole web of nepotism and corruption that is being created in Queensland as a result of the activities of its current government. No doubt, over time we will see—

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, on a point of order: I seek your guidance here. Senator Furner is making quite serious allegations about members of another parliament in Australia. The debate that we are having here is in relation to the questions which were posed to Senator Carr about an international treaty, and it is not entirely clear to me how the matters to which Senator Furner has referred relate to the matter which is the subject of this debate.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Fifield. Before you rose to your feet, I was about to call Senator Furner to order. Senator Furner, whilst I allowed you latitude in relation to the question that was asked in relation to the answer by Senator Carr, you have now strayed into other matters. I draw your attention to the question. We are taking note of the answers given by Senator Carr to a specific question asked by Senator Fierravanti-Wells.

Mark Furner (Queensland, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Deputy President. I was using that purely as an example because the inference was made by Senator Brandis about the honourable good member Bob Carr in terms of his period as the Premier of New South Wales. But if they are that precious I will refrain from touching that nerve that hits them so severely when we talk about the current Queensland government and their nepotism and their activities that have been in the media for some time now. It is a concern of the Queensland Liberal-National Party, no doubt, by the degree of defence that has been contributed towards them in this chamber today.

The United Nations Convention against Corruption is the first binding global instrument aimed at combatting corruption. We know that. Certainly Senator Brandis would be aware of this with his involvement on the Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs and the Senate estimates program, which I am involved in as well. We hear from regular departments about their particular activities. It is an area where it has certainly established mechanisms for the prevention and criminalisation of corruption as well as for international cooperation and asset recovery.

Today in an inquiry by another committee that I am involved in—the Human Rights Sub-Committee of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade—we were actually looking at this particular area as well, with regard to sex slavery and child slavery and with regard to what leads to the corruption and involvement in that sort of activity globally around the world and how, hopefully, we can eliminate that through the assistance of organisations like this, because it is an insidious trade. After you go through the most criminalised activities in the world, those being arms and drugs, third comes the trade of sex exploitation through the human trafficking of people around the world. So I am certain that instruments like the United Nations Convention against Corruption will assist with regard to establishing fair measures to eliminate those sorts of activities around our centre—because we are neighbours to the Asian rim, which is a high trading area of that sort of trade through our region. (Time expired)

Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise to speak on Minister Carr's response to my question. As Senator Brandis correctly said, he took no objection to the premise of my question. He was so eager to stand up and reply no that he clearly admitted that the premise of my question—namely, that as Premier of New South Wales he presided over a government riven by corruption, as revealed by the Eddie Obeid scandal—is actually correct. One needs to look at the attitude that Minister Carr, then Premier of New South Wales, had in relation to Eddie Obeid. Let me quote two extracts from The Reluctant Leader,written by Marilyn Dodkin in relation to Bob Carr. The first one is:

I wake up yesterday to switch on the 7 am news and hear Brogden saying fisheries Minister Eddie Obeid should stand down while the ICAC investigates a front-page Herald fantasy that he solicited a million-dollar donation to the ALP in exchange for approving the 600 poker machines required for the Bulldogs Oasis development at Liverpool. I ring Obeid. He says it's a total fabrication. By 7.30 am (fast work) I am running on all bulletins rebutting the story. The Obeid story does not take off.

Then there is this one:

Three right-wingers—Bob Martin, Eddie Obeid and Franca Arena—fought for the last right-wing place in the ministry. Carr voted for Obeid.

So that tells its own story.

It was interesting to see Franca Arena last week also writing in the papers. She has been absent from writing in the papers recently. She reminded us all that when she was calling for investigation in New South Wales in relation to child abuse we saw the end of her political career in New South Wales. So, has Minister Carr ever stopped, paused to reflect, that had he not promoted, protected and defended Mr Obeid Australia would not now be in a position where its international reputation is at risk of being stained by the activities of this scandal in New South Wales which, as Senator Brandis correctly points out, is one of the worst examples of corruption that this country has ever seen?

But wait, there is more. I am sure that this ICAC inquiry is going to reveal much, much more. I think what we have seen is only the tip of the iceberg. Let us not forget about Sussex Street. I see Senator Thistlethwaite over there, and I am looking forward to hearing what Senator Thistlethwaite is going to tell us about the New South Wales right. Perhaps he might share some information he knows about Eddie Obeid and some of his dealings and the dealings of the Terrigals in New South Wales. Perhaps he has something to contribute to this debate.

When you look at what has happened in New South Wales you definitely see that Eddie Obeid was a protected species. Time precludes me from trawling through the many examples in the New South Wales parliament when Minister Carr was the Premier where questions were raised about scandal after scandal involving Eddie Obeid. And do you know what? Very few questions were directly answered. When it was in relation to Mr Obeid, for example, in September 1999, about pecuniary interest and failure to properly disclose there, all that Premier Carr did was patronise the Leader of the Opposition, Kerry Chikarovski, by basically batting it off and being patronising in telling her that on this occasion he would extend latitude to her.

In this current debate, perhaps misogyny might have been reigning supreme at that time, but it is not a convenient excuse as we are seeing it at the moment.

Then of course there was, as I said, the Oasis Liverpool development, and the pecuniary interest disclosures, which ultimately ended up showing that Eddie Obeid had made 154 errors in his pecuniary interests since 1991.

Matt Thistlethwaite (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Australians are an honest and hardworking people who value integrity and fairness in our people-to-people relations and in our trade and business dealings—indeed, even in our sporting relations with other nations. This is well reflected in our system of government, our judiciary and the organisations that we as a people have established to investigate, to try and to prosecute wrongdoing in this country. I include in that list of organisations the states' anti-corruption watchdogs. Australia has a lot to be proud of in fighting corruption as a nation. Many nations do not have the protections, legal system and stable democracy that Australia has. That is something for which we should all be grateful and thank those who have come before us for establishing this wonderful democracy that we call home, Australia.

In fighting corruption, Australia is a leading nation on the international stage. It punches well above its weight in ensuring that integrity is maintained worldwide when it comes to relations between governments, and business dealings and trade between nations. Australia is a key member of the G20 Anti-Corruption Working Group and participated in the negotiation and development of the G20 anti-corruption plan. At the 2012 leaders summit, the mandate of the working group was extended another two years. We led Australia's participation in the working group and have been involved in a number of initiatives such as working with other nations in our region to improve international cooperation to combat corruption. This has included the development of the G20 guide on mutual legal assistance which provides a concise, step-by-step guide to mutual assistance requests.

Of course we are also involved in the United Nations Convention against Corruption. The UNCAC is the first binding global document that deals with corruption. States that are parties to the UNCAC are required to undergo a review of their implementation of key chapters every five years. Australia, as a party to that process, recently went through a review. In 2011-12, Australia's compliance with chapter 3, relating to criminalisation and law enforcement, and chapter 4, relating to international cooperation, was reviewed. The review involved the completion of a comprehensive self-assessment report, and country visits by experts from other nations, in this case Turkey and the United States, for discussion with Australian subject-matter experts. The review team has completed that review and the report is currently being prepared to go to the UNCAC.

Often when I talk to business people they say that Australia is an attractive place for investment. One of the principal reasons for that is that Australia is a stable democracy. People can have trust and confidence in the system of government that we run in this country and the organisations involved in the administration of justice that we have set up as a nation—far from other nations, such as Africa, the Middle East and the subcontinent, where some of those protections are not available in government relations.

This is reflected in the statutes and administrative bodies devoted to ensuring integrity in public decision making. They include the Australian Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity, which provides independent assurance to government about the integrity of the Australian Federal Police, the Australian Customs and Border Protection Service and the Australian Crime Commission. We have the Australian Public Service Commissioner, who is entrusted with the role of ensuring the integrity of the Australian Public Service code of conduct. There are also, of course, as Senator Carr mentioned, those systems that we have set up including freedom of information, the role of the ombudsman and the estimates process which we undertake on a regular basis here in this place to ensure integrity in our system of government. (Time expired)

John Williams (NSW, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In Senator Thistlethwaite's speech, is it any wonder that Mr Eddie Obeid was never mentioned? It was Senator Thistlethwaite who backed Mr Sartor to become premier. But the Obeid-strengthened faction soon overruled that. Like my colleague Senator Brandis, I was amazed at the answer from the foreign minister, Senator Bob Carr—a one-word answer. I wonder why? It was: 'Let's steer around this time-bomb! Don't go near it!'

If what has been revealed in allegations before ICAC in New South Wales were not so serious, it would be like a comic program on television. It would be a humour show. It would be funny. But it is really serious, what is coming out there. The Independent Commission Against Corruption is investigating allegations that the family of former MP Eddie Obeid and a group of his associates stood to profit by around $100 million from inside knowledge about mining leases in the Bylong Valley. Mr Obeid allegedly concealed his involvement in the Bylong Valley through a complex network of companies and trusts. A friend of the Obeid family made a memorable appearance last week. Justin Kennedy Lewis agreed to buy the property Coggan Creek for $3.5 million in November 2008, and immediately signed a deed that would grant the Obeids 30 per cent of any profit made from reselling the farm to Monaro Mining.

What a generous man! Mr Lewis said: 'I'll buy this property, Coggan Creek, for $3.5 million,' and immediately signed a deed where he would give 30 per cent of any profits made from the reselling of that farm to the mining company—as I said, an enormously generous sort of chap.

Mr Lewis, when asked what the cows were doing on his new farm, replied, 'Walking around and just eating grass.' What a very good answer! I have lived in rural Australia all my life and I have noticed that it is quite common practice for cows to walk around and eat grass. He could not quite work out what the cows were for. He did not remember if they were beef cattle or dairy cows or cattle just there on agistment. Counsel assisting the inquiry, Geoffrey Watson SC, asked, 'Had you spoken to an agronomist?' Mr Lewis said, 'A what?' Mr Lewis said he had been told by one of Eddie Obeid's sons that the property could be sold for four times its value, because of coal deposits in the area—but he felt it was a long shot.

Let us look at the circumstances surrounding the purchase of the property Donola. The Obeids purchased a 50 per cent stake in the property, while the other half was owned by property developer brothers Rocco and Rosario Triulcio. The property quadrupled in value after Minister Macdonald opened up the region for mining. Mr Watson said, 'So you made no inquiries whatsoever about the viability of Donola as a farm?' Rosario said that, no, they had never investigated anything about it being a farm. Mr Watson said:

Ever go and consult a designer or an architect?---No.

A town planner?---No.

…

Did you know whether it was served by water, sewerage or power?---No.

Mr Watson later asked:

Wouldn’t have known whether they ran goats or rats or cows there would you?

The reply was:

I’m assuming they didn’t run rats.

To which Commissioner David Ipp quipped:

Not four-legged ones.

As I said, if this were not so serious, it would be like a TV comedy show. It is serious. The allegations are serious. What do the public think when people are elected into senior positions and then these allegations about them come out in an ICAC inquiry? It will all come out in the wash. We do not know what the future will bring.

Of course, the Obeid-Macdonald sideshow followed the saga of the generous discount given to former roads minister Mr Eric Roozendaal for his new Honda CRV. Mr Roozendaal was so delighted with his new toy that he forgot to get it registered in his or his wife's name and gave false information to his own agency, the Roads and Traffic Authority. As Senator Cameron said, the problem they have in the Labor Party is that in Western Sydney people do not trust them. It will be all around Australia. (Time expired)

Question agreed to.