Nick Xenophon (SA, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, Senator Ludwig. It follows a series of questions I asked last week. Has the Australian Signals Directorate or another intelligence agency directly or indirectly obtained access to strategic components of the National Broadband Network in order to facilitate surveillance or monitoring of Australians?

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank Senator Xenophon for his continued interest in Australian Signals Directorate. All communication interception activities by government agencies are conducted in strict accordance with Australian law. In Australia the privacy of communications is protected by the telecommunications interception and access regime—it is referred to as the interception act. I think it is worthwhile repeating that—many in this chamber would have been on many committees that have firsthand knowledge of this, including Senator Xenophon—the interception act prohibits the listening to, copying or recording of a communication as it passes over an Australian telecommunications system. Communications in Australia can only be intercepted under a warrant. Agencies such as the police must obtain and independently issue warrants for the investigation of serious offences. ASIO, itself, has to obtain the authorisation of the Attorney-General for its warrants on matters pertaining to national security.

Nick Xenophon (SA, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. The question was very clear: has the Australian Signals Directorate or another intelligence agency sought to have access to the NBN in order to facilitate surveillance?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order, Mr President: Senator Ludwig is outlining the framework which applies under the law to any surveillance activity. What I would suggest is that that is entirely relevant to a question that is all about whether or not any such activity may or may not have been undertaken.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I believe that the minister is answering the question.

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What I was doing was providing the answer, which is in this framework: as a matter of principle and of longstanding practice, may I say, the government does not comment on intelligence matters. However, having said that, I can say that communications interception activities carried out by government agencies are conducted, as I said, in strict accordance with Australian law. I can also say that we do have a very strong legal framework, particularly to protect Australian citizens, around this area. Intelligence Services Act 2001 agencies, such as the Australian Signals Directorate and the Australian geospatial intelligence organisation, are required by law to obtain specific authorisation. (Time expired)

Nick Xenophon (SA, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. The question was: has the Australian Signals Directorate or any other intelligence agency sought access to the NBN for the purpose of surveillance, not just interception, as defined in the legislation, but also metadata collection? That is the nub of it. Can the minister answer directly a very direct and discrete question on this issue?

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is the same answer that I have given. This is a repackaged version of the primary question. Again, I will belabour this point, it is a longstanding practice of successive governments not to comment on intelligence matters. Having said that, we do have a very strong legal framework for the protection of Australian citizens in the Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Act. It is and has been very longstanding. Both ASIO and Defence Signals Directorate have a strong legislative framework that ensures the Australian public are protected in privacy matters. There are requirements, as I was saying earlier, for specific authorisation, either from the minister, the Minister for Defence or the Minister for Foreign Affairs to produce intelligence on an Australian. (Time expired)

Nick Xenophon (SA, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Does the minister acknowledge that you do not actually need a specific authorisation for metadata collection, that you do not need a warrant? And given that United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 defines interception as occurring not when phone calls, emails and electronic data are stored but when a human actually accesses that information, is it the case that Australia's Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Act and the Surveillance Devices Act provide no oversight at all of any mass surveillance of Australians, including surveillance via the NBN?

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, Senator Xenophon does want more information, and of course we do have a committee which has oversight of this area, the PJCIS. They are in what I would call a unique place in this parliament to provide information from these particular agencies.

What I am not going to do on behalf of the defence minister is get into an argument about what type of intelligence material is dealt with. As I have said, there is a longstanding policy, and I am not going to go into the detail. What I will say about that policy is not only is it a policy that both this government and successive governments have abided by in not talking about intelligence matters; it does seem to be a tiff between Senator Xenophon and Senator— (Time expired)