Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Defence, Senator Johnston. I refer to the government's plans to break its pre-election promise to build 12 new submarines in Adelaide and instead buy them from Japan. Is the minister aware that two former submarine commanders, Rear Admiral Peter Briggs and Commodore Terence Roche, have criticised this plan? They said:

… little consideration seems to have been given to the suitability of Japanese-designed submarines to meet Australia's requirements …

What does the Prime Minister and the defence minister know that these submarine experts don't?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We are engaging a number of countries with respect to recovering this program that has had nothing done on it for six years. That is because the previous government simply shut the file and did absolutely nothing. We have been confronting a capability gap, so we are using our best endeavours to work out what will benefit the Royal Australian Navy's capability into the future.

The reason we are able to do this is that there is not even a contract. There is not even an obligation or a commitment from the former government over five or six years to do anything with respect to submarines. You have left us in a position where we are confronting a capability gap such that we must as a first priority address that scheduling issue. Indeed, many on your side know that.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on direct relevance. The question went specifically to whether or not consideration had been given to the suitability of a Japanese designed submarine to meet Australian requirements. It is a very important question, and I would ask the minister to return to the substance of the question.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There were two parts to Senator Conroy's question. The first was: 'Is the minister aware …,' and then there was some commentary about that. The second part was: 'What does the Prime Minister and defence minister know?' It is quite a broad question and the minister is answering the question.

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What we do know is that urgent action is required on what is probably Australia's most complex defence procurement.

Senator Conroy interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Conroy, are you reflecting on the chair?

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Not at all.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you. If you go and read Hansard you will find I am correct.

Senator Conroy interjecting—

Senator Conroy, you are sailing very close to the wind.

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This program is one of Australia's most important defence acquisitions. For me to find that nothing had been done in five years reflects very, very poorly on all of those press releases that the Labor Party issued in Adelaide prior to the last election. Indeed, they were very good at launching press releases but not too good at launching submarines. They prevaricated. They shut the file. Indeed, many people on your side know that there was to be no work done while they ripped the submarine program off and took all the money in a forlorn pursuit of a surplus budget. (Time expired)

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. Is the minister aware that these two submarine experts have also said, and I quote:

… big compromises would have to be accepted if Australia is to buy Japanese without serious design modifications, incurring further time delays, high cost and risk.

I ask again: what do the Prime Minister and the defence minister know about submarine capability that Rear Admiral Briggs and Commodore Roach do not? (Time expired)

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have had a number of meetings with Terry Roach and former Admiral Peter Briggs over the last five years at the Submarine Institute. I know them both very well and respect them highly. What they are saying, Senator, is that Australia has specific requirements for its submarine capability. I would have thought my knowing that in opposition would have meant you would have done something about those specific requirements, you would have actually put pen to paper and drawn up some plans, you would have had a concept, you would have had an idea, you would have actually done some work—but, no. The slate is perfectly blank. I have a clean sheet of paper to work with.

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. I asked a very specific question about the capability and what the minister and the Prime Minister know about submarine capability that these two submarine experts do not. I ask you to draw him to the question.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Conroy, that was the second part of your question; the first part was: 'is the minister aware?' He stated quite clearly that he is aware, and he was making some commentary. Minister, you have the call.

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In this space, everybody is an expert on submarines. Indeed, Senator Conroy purports to be an expert on submarines. I wonder where he was in the last five years. I do know that he was building an NBN at great expense to the management. (Time expired)

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Rear Admiral Briggs also said that if the government buys Japanese submarines their effectiveness—and again I quote:

… will always be reliant on the relationship with the overseas parent navy and its industrial base.

Again, what does the minister believe that he and the Prime Minister know about submarine capability that these acknowledged experts do not?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The good senator has a very short memory, because when we built the Collins class we relied exclusively upon Cockram to provide the intellectual property to support the sustainment of that vessel. Let me just tell you that, in order for a full-cycle docking of Collins, we are currently running at 36 months. The Japanese do a full-cycle docking in eight months. The Germans do a full-cycle docking in 11 months. The Labor Party chose this particular submarine. Its cost of sustainment runs about $1 billion a year, and we are lucky if we have got two in the water! It has taken this government to get that turned around and get that submarine output—that is, to available capability in the water, ready to be tasked. We have done that. You produced the Collins, which has been nothing more or less than a problem. (Time expired)