Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Defence. I refer to evidence before the Senate committee from naval shipbuilding expert Dr John White. He said:

… there is still sufficient time available with adequate contingency for the competitive PDS—

project design study—

to be carried out and … to build the future submarines in Australia …

Why is the government misleading the public by claiming there is not enough time to build Australia's new submarines in Adelaide without a capability gap when the experts are saying the opposite?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is a very good question. I have an enormous amount of respect for Dr White. Indeed, we used him to do a report into the mess that was left to us by the former Labor government with respect to frigates being several hundred million dollars over budget and several years late. The only real authority in Australia as to where we are at with submarines is inside the defence department. If the Labor Party had done its homework and read and studied what Admiral Moffitt, who was in charge of the program, has been saying for the last several years, it would know the timing is crystal clear. For six years, Labor had done nothing. Indeed, I said this on 8 May 2013. I said this in a number of statements. I said that if the two options left behind by Minister Smith, the son of Collins option and the bespoke Australian design, were real and not fantasies then we would accept the minister at his word. But I have a copy of Labor's submarine design here.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on direct relevance to the question. The question relates to a statement made by Dr John White. The question was about that statement and also the claims about the reasons why the Australian submarines cannot be built here.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Johnston has been addressing the points of the question that was asked by Senator Wong.

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Having spent some time personally on this subject, I have a copy of Labor's submarine design after six years in government. Let me show it to the chamber.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, that was disorderly. Senator Johnston, I remind you and all ministers that in answering questions you are not allowed to use props or information like that. You have eight seconds left to complete your answer.

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is only a paper design. I have copies to distribute. I would not mind tabling it but I am not sure it is going to take— (Time expired)

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I refer to evidence to the Senate by another submarine expert, Commodore Paul Greenfield. He said:

If government wants to avoid a capability gap, the timing of delivery and the rate of delivery can be arranged so that the new submarines can be introduced in lockstep with the Collins submarines as they are withdrawn from service.

Why is the government ignoring the experts on Australia's Future Submarine project?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Greenfield may well be right that they can be arranged that way, but I have to tell you that the government, given the delay, has very limited schedule options available to it because of the complete lack of work done by Labor. I happened to see Mr Swan this morning talking about the threat to national security of not building submarines in Australia. He was himself the single greatest threat to national security—

Senator Wong interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock. Senator Wong, your manager is on her feet wishing to take a point of order.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order, again, on direct relevance. I would ask you to draw the attention of this minister to the question that was asked.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister was asked by Senator Wong, 'Why is the government ignoring advice?' The minister was going on to explain the advice. He has 31 seconds left to answer the question.

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I should also say that there are many people who are giving gratuitous advice in this space who were retained by Defence South Australia. Independent, objective advice is very, very hard to find in this space. That is because I refuse to be drawn by people who are paid to give certain specific answers. I will rely on the defence chief to tell me which way we should go. (Time expired)

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Why is the government ignoring the experts, misleading the public and breaking its promise—this minister's promise—to South Australians to build Australia's new submarines in Adelaide?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Defence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I said—and, of course, the Labor Party do not want to acknowledge what I said—in talking about the minister's two options that, 'On that basis, I accept what he has said, but if everything the minister says is based on fantasy we will tell you and we will revisit this.' What those opposite did was absolutely based on fantasy. There was no plan. There was no contract. There was no design. There was no money, because they took $20 billion out of the program. This is the biggest deception of the Australian public that I have ever seen in the national security space. You have stood there and said, 'We are going to build 12 submarines in Adelaide,' while ripping the process apart and misleading—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock. Minister .

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On a point of order, Mr President: the minister is misleading the Senate, and I seek leave to table his transcript of interview where he says: 'We will deliver those submarines from right here at ASC in Adelaide.' Let it be tabled! Read the whole thing!

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong! On two matters, Senator Wong: firstly, that was disorderly in relation to the first matter. The second matter is that you sought leave. Is leave granted?

Leave not granted.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Order!