Alex Gallacher (SA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Defence, Senator Johnston. I refer the minister to his mocking comments about the CEO of submarine builder ASC, Mr Stuart Wiley:

The guy's a fascinating submarine sustainer but I'm not sure he's built too many himself.

Why is the minister so intent on breaking his promise to build 12 new submarines in Adelaide that he is now personally denigrating someone who has built and maintained all six Collins class submarines at the ASC for the past 25 years?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It may be that we have one submarine builder in Adelaide, because we have not built one for 20 years. I want to say that, when I was appointed to this particular ministry, I was told two key facts by the department with respect to submarines. Firstly, that the inaction of the previous government meant that we were facing a very serious capability gap because of the planned withdrawal date of the Collins class submarine. Of course, Senator, you would be aware that this is a vital piece of strategic deterrence to us, given we have most of the value of our $1.6 trillion economy using the sea. Secondly—

Senator Wong interjecting—

I note that I am being interrupted by the person sitting at the table leading the opposition. She knows the truth about the value of this program. The estimated cost of the future submarine program was said to me to be more than $40 billion. Essentially the same figure was handed to me from the previous government. That is the whole program cost for 12 submarines.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. There was only one question; it was asking the minister why he was denigrating Mr Wiley, and we have not come close to that.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Moore. I remind the minister that he has 39 seconds left to answer the question.

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

These numbers should be known by everyone in the submarine enterprise. The Australian Strategic Policy Institute supported the $40 billion price tag by saying, in 2009, that they thought the value of 12 submarines built in Adelaide would be $36 billion. Taking into account the cost of inflation, the out-turned dollar value of a 20-year build of 12 submarines is—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. In terms of the process, the minister may feel that we need to know those figures, but the question was: why is he denigrating Mr Wiley?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Everybody knows, including the former finance minister, that the out-turned cost of the program in the 2009 white paper was more than $80 billion. As finance minister, she knows that number, and that is why they did nothing. That is why they— (Time expired)

Alex Gallacher (SA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have a supplementary question. I refer to Senate estimates, where the CEO of the ASC, Mr Wiley also said he had 'no idea how anyone could come up with an estimated local build cost of $80 billion' for our new submarines. Will the minister stop using this outrageously inflated estimate to justify breaking his promise to build Australia's future submarines in Adelaide?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator, if you were honest with the Senate you would show us the piece of paper that I have seen, because I asked ASC to show me their costings. It is a one-page document based upon a piece of computer software, where you fit in a 4,000 tonne submarine in terms of materials, and out pops a number. They do not even know our top-end requirements. They have never designed a submarine at ASC. They have never designed a submarine.

Let's get real here. This is not for people who are looking for a job. This is a professional program that is about national security, and we will take the advice of the service chiefs, not somebody who is looking for a job.

The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock.

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise on a point of order. The minister is referring to a document. I was wondering if the minister would table it for the Senate. He is inviting people to know.

Here is your chance: table it.

The PRESIDENT: Minister, do you have anything on the point of order? There is no point of order, Senator Conroy.

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The opposition is fully aware of the problem that is confronting the government with this program. Having done nothing they are now saying, 'You should be doing something.' They did nothing because they had costed it at an out-turned dollar value of $88 billion.

Alex Gallacher (SA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have a further supplementary question. Why has the minister resorted to trashing the hard-working men and women of the Australian ship and submarine building industry in order to justify breaking his promise? Isn't it time that government held a competitive tender process for our new submarine fleet so that the Australian people can be confident that the submarines were chosen on merit, not the personal bias of the minister?

David Johnston (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

ASC was delivering no submarines in 2009 for $1 billion. ASC was delivering no submarines for Australia in 2009 for $1 billion. They have no improved their output, thankfully, after two or three visits from Mr Coles to tell them how to do it properly. They are $350 million over budget on three air-warfare destroyer builds. I am being conservative. It is probably more than $600 million but because the data is so bad I cannot tell you. You wonder why I am worried about ASC and what they are delivering to the Australian taxpayer! Do you wonder why I wouldn't trust them to build a canoe? What they have done on the air-warfare destroyer I have had to—and Mathias Cormann has had to—repair. And she is the one who owned them. She owns them! She let the project just go to the four winds. It is all her fault. (Time expired)

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Employment) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask that further question be placed on the Notice Paper.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I would ask the President to consider, after looking at the Hansard, the standing order—I think it is 168—dealing with the tabling of documents in light of the minister's answer. I just ask that you reflect upon that.

The PRESIDENT: I can probably deal with that now. That standing order refers to document that were quoted from. I do not believe the minister was quoting from a document.

An opposition senator: He did.

The PRESIDENT: Let me investigate, and I am happy to report back to you if I need to do that.