Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Indigenous Affairs (Senator Scullion) to questions without notice asked by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate (Senator Wong) and Senator Cameron today relating to the Don Dale Youth Detention Centre.

In taking note of Senator Scullion's answers, I note—in words often said by Senator Scullion in answer to questions that I was asking him—there is no malice at all in the questions that I am going to be putting to him again in this period of taking note.

We heard today that the minister was deeply concerned about the issues around the culture of abuse that was seen in the Don Dale centre, but we still do not know, after the answers the minister provided today, just when he became aware of what was going on in that centre. What disturbs me more than anything in this process is that, when we sat in many hours of discussion in the Senate community affairs process, the minister would come in his then role as shadow minister for Indigenous affairs and be fully briefed on every single aspects of Indigenous services that were being taken in the Northern Territory when the Northern Territory government was the Labor government of the Northern Territory. The minister would sit for hours in our committee, asking us chapter and verse about what was going on with expenditure and programs in the Northern Territory at that time. But remember the original processes around what was happening at the centre were at that time, and now this minister says that he really did not know about it and that he was shocked by the Four Corners program.

The Minister for Indigenous Affairs was the opposition minister and more so he is a senator for the Northern Territory, and what was being exposed in the media and in commission reports in the Northern Territory was exactly what was happening at that centre. I have had a look at the media that was being put out in 2015, when the Children's Commissioner put out the report that they did on what was happening in the Territory. There was also the government report at the time, and there were open discussions about individual cases and also the exposed processes that were happening at that centre. That was clearly in debate and discussion. Individual families were coming forward, and the Children's Commissioner at the time was quite clear that there had to be action taken to change the processes and the damage that was occurring at that time.

Now we find out that the senior senator from the Northern Territory, who not only had the long-term responsibility for issues of Indigenous services but also is now the minister for that program, had not had his interest piqued by that process that was going on in the Northern Territory. It defies belief. Today in this place the minister somehow seemed to be able to blame the ABC for not giving him prior knowledge of what was going to occur in the Four Corners program. I do not understand why having a preview of a program was going to provide any more information to the minister from the Northern Territory, who had had open discussion, who had people coming to him, who had discussions with the current Northern Territory government. We know how close Minister Scullion is to the previous Northern Territory government—and we can say that, since last weekend, it is the previous Northern Territory government. We know how closely the minister worked with the ministers of that Country Liberal Party and National Party government in that area. We know how closely he worked on policy. When he came to our Senate committees, consistently talking about issues that should be raised in that area, it seems passing strange that he was not aware of the concerns raised in the community about what was happening at Don Dale.

The good thing now, of course, is that we have a commission process looking into that area. We have strong people who have raised these issues consistently, and we are very relieved that this will be exposed. We can work together on it, but no-one can convince me that this minister was not aware. No-one can convince me that his interest was not piqued, because he did not want his interest piqued. Again I say: no malice, Minister Scullion; no malice.

James Paterson (Victoria, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I agree with Senator Moore: this is a very serious issue. It is also a very complex issue. It is not a simple issue. No Australian—no-one in the government included—who watched that episode of Four Corners could be anything other than horrified and disgusted at the vision that was included. No-one could watch it and be anything other than appalled and shocked. No-one could be anything other than determined to fix it as soon as possible. That is why the coalition federal government acted as decisively as any in memory to establish very quickly a royal commission and to appoint two very eminent royal commissioners to look into this issue.

I think all senators would agree that the royal commission should be allowed to do its job effectively. I think all senators would agree that the commission should be supported to fully and thoroughly investigate this matter and to propose solutions which will be considered by both the Northern Territory government and the federal government. I think it is important that we recognise, though, that this is not just a recent failure and it is not just a failure of one side of politics or the other. There is a cultural problem in the Northern Territory corrections system; that much is clear. It is a problem which has existed for many years. It has existed under governments of both political persuasions. No-one in the Northern Territory has covered themselves with glory in administering this system.

I do not think that getting to solutions and implementing solutions for this problem are aided, however, by partisan attacks on the federal Minister for Indigenous Affairs. Let's remember that he does not administer the Northern Territory corrections system. He is not responsible for appointing or employing any of the people who were seen in the footage. He is the federal Minister for Indigenous Affairs and, as a result, he takes a great deal of interest in this matter but it is not on his watch that this occurred. It is not his responsibility that this occurred.

The coalition government is committed not just to reforming the Northern Territory criminal justice system in terms of juvenile detention but also to looking at wider, related issues. This is a complex problem and it starts at high rates of Indigenous offending and high rates of Indigenous incarceration. That needs to be addressed in a holistic, systematic way. That is something which probably is going to require extensive legal reform and the goodwill and bipartisanship of all sides of politics, particularly in the Northern Territory. We are committed to assisting in that process. This year alone we are providing $256 million through the Indigenous Advancement Strategy to help improve community safety and address the drivers of Indigenous incarceration. The Prime Minister has also put the issue of transitioning Indigenous people from incarceration to employment—in order to reduce the risk of offending and reoffending—onto the agenda of the Council of Australian Governments.

Before I conclude, I want to also take a moment to reflect on our colleague Minister Scullion. I do not think anyone in this place would doubt his sincere commitment to the advancement of Indigenous Australians. He has spent more time, more energy and more effort focused on these issues than almost anyone in this chamber, with a very few honourable exceptions. No-one can doubt his passion and his dedication to the advancement of the causes of Indigenous Australians. I think he is very well placed, as a senator for the Northern Territory, as the Indigenous affairs minister. Long before he came into that role, he had a commitment to these issues, and, I suspect, long after he leaves this role and leaves this place, he will still have a long-term commitment to these issues.

I invite opposition senators who think they have done more on this issue, who think they might have devoted more time on this issue, to tell the Senate about their track record, about their years of commitment and service to this issue. I look forward to hearing how they have done more than Senator Scullion to address these issues, how their commitment is more sincere, how they have spent more time in remote Indigenous communities and how they have spent more time with young Indigenous men and women and talked to them and listened to them about the issues that they face. I very much look forward to Labor senators demonstrating in a partisan way—as they seem to want to handle this issue—that their interest is superior to that of the Indigenous affairs minister, Nigel Scullion.

Carol Brown (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Families and Payments) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Madam Deputy President—

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

Gavin Marshall (Victoria, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I remind senators that Senator Brown has the right to be heard in silence. Please respect her few minutes.

Carol Brown (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Families and Payments) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I, too, rise to take note of the answers from Senator Scullion in response to the questions from Senators Wong, Conroy and Cameron. Senator Paterson is right when he talks about the royal commission being welcomed. This side of politics also welcomed the royal commission when it was announced by the Prime Minister, because it was shocking footage that we saw aired on the ABC's Four Cornersprogram. Anyone who viewed would not soon forget it. But what we heard here in the answers from Senator Scullion was actually more questions that need to be asked, and they have to be answered. Senator Scullion in his responses did not answer the questions that were put to him—and they were very serious questions, regardless of what Senator Paterson said in his contribution to try to paint this as some sort of partisan quest by the Labor Party. That is not the case. This is a very, very serious issue. It goes to what the minister knew about what was happening at Don Dale. It is a very, very serious issue. In the minister's answers, he first sought to blame the ABC for the reason why he could not view the episode. He then sought to blame his department for the reason why he was not fully briefed about the issues—

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

He did not.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, he didn't.

Carol Brown (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Families and Payments) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, he did. The departmental processes were what he talked about—about being given full briefings. What we have learnt through the media—even though we have heard Minister Scullion today make some changes to the story—is that when Mr Turnbull announced the royal commission he said:

This needs a thorough inquiry. We need to move quickly on that, get to the bottom it, and expose what occurred and expose the culture that allowed it to occur and allowed it to remain unrevealed for so long.

The first thing he really needs to do is talk to his own minister, because it is becoming quite apparent that Minister Scullion was aware of what was going on prior to the ABC Four Corners report.

We have had, since then, a number of different reports that have alleged that Senator Scullion made these comments. These reports are completely at odds with what Senator Scullion said today. Senator Scullion, according to a media report:

… said he "didn't know anything about" the allegations prior to last week's episode, last night admitted asking his department for advice about the Don Dale centre in October last year after reading a media report of findings by the NT Children's Commissioner.

That is what he said. That is what has been reported: that he had asked for a brief in October last year and he did nothing about it. It appears that he did nothing about it.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You are not doing a very good job of not politicising this.

Carol Brown (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Families and Payments) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Brandis, for your help, because you should be one of the people saying to Minister Scullion, 'Why didn't you do anything about it? You knew about it. You asked for a brief. And you just ignored it.' That is exactly what we have seen from Senator Scullion. Nothing. He has just ignored it. We also heard Senator Scullion's response today when he was asked about Professor Calma's comments about Senator Scullion. Let's just hear exactly what Professor Calma, the former social justice commissioner, had to say. He basically said that Senator Scullion is not listening and he needs to consider his own position. (Time expired)

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If this was a strategy by the Australian Labor Party to divert attention from the horrendous difficulty that Senator Dastyari is in at the moment, with his failure to answer very reasonable questions put to him, then it has failed completely. Senator Scullion has been an exemplary Minister for Indigenous Affairs. And, more than being a good minister, I know that Senator Scullion through all of his life has been a great friend of Indigenous people right across Australia but particularly in the Northern Territory. There are allegations being made about Senator Scullion's answering of questions today. I thought he answered every question exactly. He answered the questions that were asked and he gave a bit more information than he was asked for. He indicated clearly the course of events that occurred.

The allegation is made that somehow Senator Scullion as the minister and as a Northern Territory senator should have been aware of what was happening in this particular centre. As I recall it, this centre was set up by the Northern Territory government when Labor was in charge—I might be wrong, but I think it was when Labor was in charge. They set up this centre. The opposition are accusing Senator Scullion of not knowing what was happening. I wonder aloud: when Senator Peris was a senator for the Northern Territory was she aware of this, and if she was why didn't she raise it, and if she was not aware of it then why don't you blame her the same way that you blame Senator Scullion? Senator Trish Crossin, who was a wonderful senator for the Northern Territory—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Gavin Marshall (Victoria, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Macdonald has the right to be heard in silence. Please respect that right

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Madam Deputy President. I appreciate your protection but I do not really need it. These sorts of things do not ever worry me. Former Senator Trish Crossin, who we all knew and loved in this chamber, was done over by a captain's pick by the leader of the Labor Party.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

She's the greatest waste of space ever to enter this chamber.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am not going into that, Senator Brandis, but I take your interjection. Senator Crossin was a great friend of Indigenous people, and a great friend of all Territorians. Are you suggesting that, because she did not know, she is in some way at fault? What if she did know but did not report it? At least have some consistency in your criticism.

Senator Scullion understands the issues; he understands the portfolio. As I understand it this is an establishment run by the Northern Territory government. Am I wrong? Is that correct? Can someone help me? It is run by the Northern Territory government, so why the Labor Party are attacking a coalition federal minister escapes me a bit, except that it is just a very poor attempt to divert attention from the horrendous position that Senator Dastyari is in because of his failure to disclose money given to him for private debt by some company associated, as I understand it, with the Chinese government. The attack on Senator Scullion was the dampest squib I have ever seen. But that avoids the question of what a significant, careful and caring minister Senator Scullion has been in his portfolio, in his responsibilities for the Indigenous and other people of the Northern Territory.

I congratulate Senator Scullion on what he has done. I congratulate him on and admire him for his answers to the questions in question time today. As I remarked to my colleague next door to me, I think he is giving too much information—he is answering the question and more. Senator Scullion was quite keen to lay out the facts, and those facts clearly show that he has acted appropriately, as any minister should and would do, and I congratulate him on that.

Deborah O'Neill (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Madam Deputy President, I acknowledge that this is the first occasion on which you have given me the call. I look forward to your success in your role. Today we have heard a very weak defence from those opposite. We have here a minister who wants the job, who wants the title, but who does not want to take the responsibility. He does not have the skills to take on the job, and that was made very clear in the question that was put forward today citing the remarks of Tom Calma. If you ever need to see an example of the coalition government's dysfunction, division and disarray, you need look no further than its handling of the abuse and the detention of Indigenous juveniles at the Don Dale Youth Detention Centre in the Northern Territory. The images distributed after the Four Corners investigation, of a hooded youth restrained in his chair, of a young man being rounded up by burly staff who then removed his clothing and of the gassing of inmates, were shocking. They were dangerous incidents. Children were placed in solitary confinement for up to 17 hours. The world looked on in incredulous disbelief that this could happen in Australia in 2016. But what was the Minister for Indigenous Affairs for Australia doing at the time while the rest of the country was looking on? He received a phone call, around 1 pm on the day that the program was to be broadcast, from Ms Meldrum-Hanna. She has tweeted:

I spoke to Scullion's office yesterday lunchtime. They knew about the story & STILL didn't watch. What's going on?

That is a very good question. What is going on is a minister who is not fit for the job; a minister who does not have the skills or the disposition or the capacity to do what needs to be done. Senator Scullion's reaction at the time was at once ignorant and arrogant. What sort of minister responsible for Indigenous affairs could possibly say that he did not have his interest piqued by reports of abuse? There were reports out from 2015 that he had access to. All I heard today was a man standing up and saying, 'Oh, gee, the pictures were terrible.' What do they have to do for this minister? Put pictures in the reports so that he can see what is going on in the area that he has responsibility for? Is it only the pictures that are going to move him to act?

Is it only pictures that he can actually understand?

It is the responsibility of a minister to have the capacity to read carefully what is in those documents and to respond in the appropriate way at the appropriate time. This is, absolutely, not evident in what we have seen from this minister in his management of his portfolio. What we saw today was a man who disrespected the questions. He should have known about and been prepared for those questions today. When Senator Wong asked him when he knew, did we hear a date? Did he offer a time line? Did he give any decent defence for the ignorant way in which he answered his question? No, he did not.

He is not fit to continue in this portfolio. This is a new government; they had an opportunity to put somebody decent in to do the job. He is the only senator representing the Northern Territory on that side of the parliament in this chamber. He has a dual responsibility as a Northern Territorian and as the first minister of this country for the first peoples—for the Indigenous peoples of this country. And he was not able to read briefings—to take briefings and to understand the content of vital reports that came to public notice as early as 2015.

He has hundreds of staff in the department to support his understanding of his portfolio, yet he was incapable of doing that. His arrogance knows no bounds. He was told by Ms Meldrum-Hanna that the program was going to come on that evening, and yet he went ahead with the business of his ordinary day without looking at it. And then he says to the Prime Minister: 'Oh, look mate'—he says 'mate' to the Prime Minister—'I didn't know it was going on. No, I didn't know, mate. I'll have a look and I'll call you back.' It is not good enough.

It is not good enough for the senator for the Northern Territory. It is not good enough for the man who is supposed to be standing up for the Indigenous people in this country, and they know he is not up to the job. Professor Calma said:

Any minister who is not willing to engage with the community they represent and want to listen to them and work cooperatively with them, shouldn't be a minister.

Tom Calma knows and the whole Indigenous community knows. These guys cannot defend him because they know he is not up to the job and he has done the wrong thing. When that came out on the ABC, any minister worth his salt—

Government Senators:

Government senators interjecting—

Deborah O'Neill (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

They are all cringing over there. Any minister worth his salt would have read about it, been prepared and had a go. Not this one. (Time expired)

Gavin Marshall (Victoria, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the motion moved by Senator Moore agreed to?

Question agreed to.