Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Education and Training, Senator Birmingham. Can the minister confirm that under former Senator Day's student builder pilot so-called student builders will not be paid any wages and, when participants are placed in unpaid work experience, host employers will pay a placement fee to former Senator Day's North East Vocational College?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Let me firstly deal with the last part of Senator Moore's question, in which she describes it as 'Senator Day's North East Vocational College'. Let us be very clear: the North East Vocational College is a not-for-profit training provider. It is a trading provider that Senator Day voluntarily served on the board of, received no payment for and has no financial interest in. I want to be very clear about that, because there is smearing going on from those opposite not just of former Senator Day but also of a quality training provider that just last year was recognised in the South Australian Training Awards as the Small Training Provider of the Year and in the last few weeks was visited by the state Labor Treasurer, Tom Koutsantonis. It is a recognised quality training provider.

This is an alternative delivery model. That is the exact nature of the pilots that are in question here. And so it is that, yes—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cameron, a point of order.

Doug Cameron (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order on relevance: we are now halfway through the response time for the question, and Senator Birmingham has not gone anywhere near answering the question that was put to him.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Cameron.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Government senators interjecting—

Order, on both sides! Senator Birmingham quite clearly at the outset of his question answered a key element of the question posed by Senator Moore in relation to Senator Day, which was a clear part of the question. He has been in order.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I was telling the senators, I have emphasised again and again these alternative delivery pilots are exactly that: they are alternative to the different delivery arrangements that trial apprenticeship models in different ways and trial the delivery of qualifications in different ways. These students will receive a certificate IV in small business planning and monitoring, and in small business management; a certificate III in carpentry; a certificate IV in building and construction building. They will also meet South Australia's Consumer and Business Services requirements, the Building Work Contractors Act, occupational and business licensing work requirements, all building work contractor licence—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock. Senator Cameron?

Doug Cameron (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, a point of order on relevance. The issue was about the payment or non-payment of wages, and that has not been addressed.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That was an element of the question.

Doug Cameron (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It was a key element, Mr President.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That was an element of the question. Senator Birmingham, you have the call and you are aware of the question.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. I was working through the elements of the question, and, indeed, reminding the Senate and Senator Cameron that not only are recognised qualifications received but also that there are licences that are received as well. Under the alternative delivery arrangements in this case, students are not paid. They are students; that is the nature of the arrangement for this model. Just as many students around the country receive qualifications for which they are not paid during their training. This is an alternative delivery pilot— (Time expired)

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Moore, a supplementary question.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Can the minister advise the Senate how many hours of such unpaid work experience will be required of participants each year in former Senator Day's favoured student building apprenticeship delivery pilot?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will come back to the Senate with the details of the number of hours to receive the qualifications that they are getting—the qualifications under the Australian Qualifications Framework and the qualifications that meet licensing credentials.

Senator Wong interjecting—

Which qualifications, Senator Wong? I will tell you again: as I just said, Certificate IV in Small Business Planning and 'Monitor and manage small business operations'; Certificate III in Carpentry; and Certificate IV in Building and Construction. Each participant receives all of these, as well as completing training to meet South Australia's business services and Building Work Contractors Act, occupational and business criteria licence requirements, the building work contractors licence, and building works—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order, Minister! Senator Cameron, a point of order.

Doug Cameron (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, on relevance, there was one question on this, and that is: how many hours of unpaid work experience will be required of the participants? The minister has not gone near it.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Cameron, I will entertain points of order, but I do not want it to become an abuse of question time by having an opportunity to repeat the question. Senator Birmingham very clearly, up front, indicated he would take the details of that on notice, and that is the minister's entitlement. He indicated that, and the minister is entitled then, if he is relevant to the topic, to complete the answer fully. The minister was in order.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I was saying, a range of qualifications are received and, of course, there are on-the-job training elements to those qualifications. So I will check exactly what the on-the-job training elements are and the number of hours that are required to meet them, and I will happily provide that to the Senate—as I said, Senator Cameron, in the first 10 seconds of my answer. But all of this is about trying to trial new ways to lift apprenticeship numbers, which went into free fall thanks to the policy actions of the Gillard government in 2012. (Time expired)

Honourable senators interjecting —

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I believe there is one final supplementary question, Senator Brandis. Please do not get too excited, Senators! Senator Moore, a final supplementary question.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Brandis, this will be a favoured question! Minister, prior to former Senator Day's resignation from the Senate, were there any limits on the Turnbull government's willingness to accommodate former Senator Day's favoured projects for access to taxpayers' money, even if it meant bastardising apprenticeship training?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Former Senator Day, of course, employed more apprentices in his career than any person over there—any single one of you. Yes, he was passionate about training and about apprenticeships. But, if those opposite want to talk about use of taxpayer moneys, why don't we go back and have a look at the $300 million Early Years Quality Fund, which of course was just a great big rort to sign people up to the United Voice union? Why don't we go and have a look at the money that was paid to the Transport Workers Union, a payment they made to the union for the Road Safety Remuneration Tribunal's promotion because they thought it was a good idea to pay the trade union movement to go out and promote something that was going to destroy and cripple jobs in the transport industry? If they want to talk about value for money, why did former Prime Minister Julia Gillard think it was great to personally intervene to send mid-level union officials to Moscow at the taxpayer's expense for G20 meetings? There are many occasions— (Time expired)

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am almost embarrassed to interrupt Senator Birmingham's flow, but I ask that further questions be placed upon the Notice Paper.