Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister Assisting the Leader for Science) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Attorney General (Senator Brandis) to a question without notice asked by Senator Carr today relating to the report of the Standing Committee of Privileges, Search warrants and the Senate.

The exercise of the search warrants, which was the subject of the Privileges Committee report that was tabled yesterday found that the AFP raids into the office of former Senator Conroy and a staff member's home during last year's election campaign were an improper interference in the work of the parliament. The report also found that Senator Conroy had rightly claimed that photographs seized during the raids were in fact privileged, and the committee accepts that the documents may have been responsible for two NBN employees being sacked.

Now this is a circumstance where, during an election campaign and following the advice of the NBN to the minister responsible—who claims, of course, that he never spoke to the Prime Minister about this matter—the Prime Minister, we will all recall, on the night of the election said how outraged he was that the Labor Party had launched a campaign and that he was going to refer the matter to the police. Do you recall that on election night? The Prime Minister was seeking to involve the police in the political events of that election campaign where, during that election campaign, there were in fact raids undertaken against the Labor Party because of the exposure of the activities of this government with regard to the operations of the NBN.

We had a circumstance where the NBN itself acknowledged that at least one of two people who were subsequently removed from the NBN were not the subject of inquiry until that raid had actually occurred. That person confirmed to the committee that they had not previously been under investigation.

Of course the committee found that the AFP's actions were not a contempt of the parliament, because there is an extremely high bar set. You have to demonstrate in these circumstances that a person, who is accused of contempt, has the intention to actually undertake that contempt. That does not diminish the gravity of these issues. It does not for a moment diminish just how serious this question is.

We have heard today from the Attorney-General, the first law officer of the land, that this government intends to do nothing about this question; it has done nothing whatsoever about the question. It does not let the NBN off the hook in any way. It is extraordinary that, on the ABC this morning when we woke up, we heard broadcast that the NBN intended to prosecute their case against the whistleblowers despite the findings of the Privileges Committee report. What does the government have to say on this matter? Nothing. It does not see it as its responsibility to protect the privileges of this parliament. It sees it as nothing to do with it whatsoever.

What we do know is that the Prime Minister has his concerns about the opposition's attitude when his actions taken as Minister for Communications exposed a failure of this government. But that does not excuse the NBN Co's behaviour and, in particular, the chairman of the NBN, Dr Ziggy Switkowski. He is a man I have worked with closely and for whom I have a high regard. The very fact that he has had such a distinguished public service career—not only as the chair of the NBN Co but as chancellor of the RMIT, as head of ANSTO and a whole series of other responsibilities—demonstrates to me that he actually does know better. What he did during the election campaign was publish an article actually arguing in defence of these raids, which the secretary of the PM&C department subsequently said was a clear and unequivocal breach of the caretaker conventions of this country. It was a breach that was also undertaken by the department of communications, which had a draft of that article given to it by Dr Switkowski. It did nothing about that either.

We have a circumstance where staff members of Senator Conroy, as he then was, were read their rights and told that they were suspects—in the normal course of their work as staff members of a member of parliament. It is quite an extraordinary proposition that we have a circumstance where this government seeks, by their negligence, to allow this behaviour to go on. (Time expired)

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is one of the most foolish and irresponsible speeches I have ever heard in all the years I have sat in this chamber, because what Senator Carr, a former minister of the Crown who ought to know better, has done is attacked the integrity of the Australian Federal Police.

Senator O'Neill interjecting—

I will come to the others whose integrity he has attacked in a moment. But, first and foremost, Senator Kim Carr has attacked the integrity of the Australian Federal Police. As the minister with responsibility for the Australian Federal Police, may I say to you, Madam Deputy President, and to anyone who may be listening to this broadcast, that there is absolutely no question whatsoever about the integrity of the Australian Federal Police, and for Senator Carr to attack their integrity is despicable.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister Assisting the Leader for Science) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Madam Deputy President, on a point of order: I claim to be misrepresented. The allegation I make is against this government, not the Federal Police, and the Attorney-General knows it.

Gavin Marshall (Victoria, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Carr. That is a debating point. Senator Brandis, please resume.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Carr, you protest too much. But, in fact, the allegation you make is against the Australian Federal Police, because what you are alleging, Senator Carr—do not scurry out of the chamber like a coward—is that the Australian Federal Police improperly executed a search warrant.

When the Australian Federal Police decide to execute a search warrant they only do so on the basis that they are satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to do so—on the basis, usually, of a complaint made to them. To suggest that the AFP have done something improper or inappropriate, as Senator Carr does, is to say that they made a decision on the basis of a misapplication of the grounds or the test for the issuance of a search warrant, and to say that is disgraceful.

Senator Carr also attacked NBN Co. As he also knows, NBN Co is an independent statutory corporation. These events occurred, incidentally, during the caretaker period of an election campaign. There is no capacity whatsoever, in particular during an election campaign, for a minister to interfere in a decision by the appropriate executives of NBN Co to make a complaint to the police that a crime may have been committed. So the attack on the integrity of NBN Co is equally specious.

Senator Carr also implied, not in the contribution we have just heard but in the question he asked of me, that the Prime Minister may have had some role in these events, to which I can tell you—and this has already been put on the public record by the Minister for Communications, Senator Fifield, the portfolio minister responsible for NBN Co—that, categorically, that is not the truth, and any suggestion or innuendo that it is the case is a lie.

Lastly, Senator Carr referred to the caretaker conventions. Might I remind you, Madam Deputy President, that when Senator Carr was last a minister in a government, the government of which he was a member—the second Rudd government—had such scant respect for the caretaker conventions that the then Attorney General, who was also, as I recall, the Special Minister of State and the Minister for the Public Service and Integrity, of all things, said that the caretaker conventions were 'a matter of political practice'. That was the regard that the then Attorney General and the government of which Senator Carr was a member had for the caretaker conventions—that they regarded them as merely 'a matter of political practice'. What Senator Carr has said, as I said a moment ago, is a despicable smear on the Australian Federal Police and on other innocent Australians.

Deborah O'Neill (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have to state at the outset my absolute contempt for the contribution we just had from the leading law officer of the land, the Attorney-General. There is absolutely no doubt that Senator Carr made no representation at all about the AFP, so the outrage—this fake outrage—that we have seen from Senator Brandis is completely misplaced and completely misaligned. There was no criticism of the AFP. I want to make that point as I commence my remarks, trying to figure out how we got to this point.

How did we get to the point where the Privileges Committee of the Senate yesterday delivered a report entitled Search warrants and the Senate and found improper interference with documentation about the NBN held by a senator and his staff?

That is what occurred and that is what that report indicated yesterday. We got here because of the disastrous management of all things NBN related since Malcolm Turnbull got his hands on it as the Minister for Communications. Everything to do with the NBN has been one stuff up after another. Mr Turnbull, as Prime Minister, has continued the problem, and I will say more about that as time permits.

But let's have a bit of a look at what was revealed about the NBN company's involvement in the appalling raid at the office of former Senator Conroy and one of his staff members. The Senate Standing Committee of Privileges report yesterday made it clear that there was indeed improper interference. Let me make it clear once again—in case somebody on the other side wants to get up and misrepresent Labor's position—I make no criticism of the Australia Federal Police in relation to this raid, but I do absolutely put on record my disgust with the way in which the NBN Co, with Mr Ziggy Switkowski as chairman, involved themselves in the raid and used documentation to take disciplinary action against two of their own employees. Now, they said different things in their submission to the inquiry. They said that they already had suspicions about one person in their organisation delivering information to Senator Conroy and others, but there was another one that they had no idea about. NBN took action against two of their employees, and one of them was only because of the material they were able to get from Senator Conroy's staffer's home.

And remember when this happened? It was in the second week of the election period last year—a highly political time. NBN Co and the government had to be held to account on many occasions in the lead-up to that election for the NBN failure in the blowout of costs, failures in delays, failures in mismanagement and failures in misrepresentation to the Australian public about what was going on. This was done primarily by Senator Conroy, who, it is fair to say, was an absolute champion for people in Australia who want and deserve a real NBN and not the lemon that is being delivered at the behest of Mr Turnbull both as the minister and now as the PM. People are disgusted, and rightly so, at the failure of Mr Turnbull and his multitechnology mix. People from all over the country—good Australians like those two employees from the NBN—wanted the truth out. They wanted Australians to know what was going on and they provided the evidence. They gave information to people who could make a difference. Australians all over the country are sending in material to us, as senators and MPs, about the NBN's failure. The Australian people actually own the NBN. The minister who sits over there runs the NBN on our behalf and he is doing a very, very bad job following in the footsteps of the now Prime Minister, Mr Turnbull.

The government did not like the scrutiny that they were being held account to. When that raid occurred in the second week of the election campaign, well, I will just leave it to decent, hardworking, thoughtful Australians to join the dots. What was truly breathtaking though was that when the AFP raid happened at the home of Senator Conroy's staffer there was an NBN employee there who with his digital camera took photographs. That is where the real improper interference happened. In the report there is significant detail. I would draw attention to page 16, where the discussion occurs about the NBN Co using that information:

We had previously been identified as having access to one of the stolen documents but had not yet commenced an active investigation against one of their own employees.

The NBN Co is a disaster. They tried to cover it up and this report proves how malicious that cover-up can be. (Time expired)

Linda Reynolds (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I too rise to take note of the minister's answer on this issue. Listening to the two speakers opposite, I concur with the Attorney-General that this is probably one of the most disgraceful issues under attack here. No matter how much fancy footing and words that Senator Cameron and Senator O'Neill use, this is clearly an attack on the integrity of the AFP. The investigation is still ongoing, as they well know. Again, despite the verbal contortions, there is no other conclusion that any of us in this place can draw than that they are attacking the integrity of the AFP. In fact, Senator O'Neill just went through a list of issues in relation to AFP procedures—

Deborah O'Neill (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I did not. I went through the procedures of the NBN.

Linda Reynolds (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

in relation to the raid as part their inquiries as well. I would like to remind those opposite of the danger of playing politics with the AFP, who must always be beyond reproach. In May last year, the shadow Attorney-General, Mark Dreyfus, said:

… at all times, we need to make sure that the Australian Federal Police and all our agencies are absolutely independent of political interference.

…   …   …

… we also need to be concerned about the appearance of police work. We need to be concerned about building confidence in our police and our agencies …

Such is the behaviour from those opposite on this question this afternoon. He went on to say:

It does undermine confidence in the independence of the police.

If you want to attack the government, attack the government, but don't be so cowardly and so wrong to actually use the AFP to try and shield your attack because it is just disgraceful.

Let's have a look at some of the facts here that those opposite have conveniently ignored in this whole process. Despite the fact that this is still a matter under AFP investigation, which those opposite know we cannot go into any detail, I was chair of the committee when this incident occurred and I have quite a different recollection. I know the Hansard record would have quite a different recollection of events from those opposite. What they have not told the Australian people is that the NBN operates critical national infrastructure and like any company it is completely within its rights to refer suspected threats of criminal activities or matters to the Federal Police. Similarly, they are also able to pursue potential code of conduct breaches internally. The government and the Attorney General have already acknowledged the work of the privileges committee and has also noted that the final report did find former Senator Conroy's claim of privilege of material seized by the AFP should be upheld. But, significantly, the Privileges Committee did not recommend that a content be found in respect of these matters.

It is utterly appalling that Labor continues to question integrity of the Australian Federal Police and the NBN. The AFP does act independently of this government. They determine what is within their jurisdiction to investigate and carry out their duties according to the law of this land. When those opposite suggest otherwise, despite their protestations that they are not, there is simply no conclusion any of us in this place can reach, considering the comments of those opposite and the nature of the question, other than that they are querying the integrity of the Australian Federal Police. There is no basis to their claim that the government in any way directed or attempted to influence the AFP on their investigation into this matter. They do act independently.

Additionally, in relation to Labor's comments about potential whistleblowers, these are also completely unfounded. So, before rushing to make wild allegations, those opposite should note that the NBN does have a well-established process for responding to information from whistleblowers, with a notification process managed by an independent third party. I understand that the NBN has advised that those protocols have never been accessed. The protocols do fully comply with the Public Interest Disclosure Act, which seeks to protect public officials.

Senator O'Neill interjecting—

On the opposition's baseless claims that the NBN is behind schedule and over budget, Senator O'Neill sits in on these estimates hearings almost as much as I do, as does Senator Dastyari, and they both know, from the clear evidence provided time and time again to the committee, that those claims are simply untrue. Just asserting them over and over again does not make them true, and neither does suggesting that this government is in any way interfering with the AFP inquiry. (Time expired)

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yesterday, the privileges committee did hand down a report that found that there was improper interference in the functions of this parliament, and there is no way that anyone in this chamber can get around those conclusions, which ought to raise very serious concerns for senators in this place and, indeed, for members in the other place. It is worth observing also that the report that was handed down yesterday was adopted in this chamber without opposition and that it makes a series of very acute observations about the issues that arise in relation to the raids that took place during the last election campaign.

Let us recall the gravity of that decision to execute a search warrant during an election period. What we saw was that, at the direction and request of a wholly-owned government business enterprise, a search was undertaken to seize documents from a sitting parliamentarian—from a senator, Senator Conroy, who had been tenacious and assiduous in chasing down the absolutely grotesque failures associated with the NBN project in the period since Mr Turnbull, the Prime Minister, assumed responsibility for that project.

Before I move on to considering the nature of those failures, I want to put on record again, because it appears to be difficult for senators on the other side of the chamber to understand this, that we have no criticism of the AFP. We make no criticism of the AFP because, as is observed in the report that was adopted here yesterday, the officers who executed that warrant did so in good faith and in the belief that they were pursuing a legitimate complaint. My concern is about the nature of the complaint and the reason that that complaint was brought forward, because it is hard not to observe the correlation between the grotesque failures and enormous shortcomings in the NBN project in the period since Mr Turnbull had responsibility for it and the desire to uncover whistleblowers who had blown the whistle on these shortcomings. What has happened since Mr Turnbull took over this project? He promised a great deal about providing an NBN that would be cheaper and more effective than the one—

Deborah O'Neill (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Faster.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Faster and sooner. But what actually happened? The cost of the NBN, on the watch of Mr Turnbull, blew out to $50 billion, more than twice what had been promised by Mr Turnbull during his campaign. We had a promise from Mr Turnbull that every Australian household would have access to the NBN by 2016, and where are we now? At this point in time, more than seven million Australian households are still waiting for that service. Are people satisfied with the service that they are receiving from the NBN? No, they are not at all, and the number of complaints about the NBN has blown out by about 150 per cent in the last year alone. Who is responsible for this failure, you ask? There is no escaping it because one person and one person alone has claimed responsibility for this project, and that person is Mr Turnbull. That person is the Prime Minister. It is hard not to see a relationship between this failure, the Prime Minister's responsibility for this failure and the extraordinary decision undertaken by the NBN Co during an election to pursue a complaint that resulted in a raid on the offices of a sitting member of parliament who had been pursuing that failure.

It is time for the government to come clean about their role in this process, and I am afraid I have no confidence in the assurances provided here today, because, time and time again, instead of direct answers, we see obfuscation and deferral on issues of great significance in relation to the integrity of processes by this government. The Senate has applied itself to examining this issue and the legal issues. It is time for the government to do the same.

Question agreed to.