Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This government has been in power for four years, and the entire energy system is crumbling around it. The government has—

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Who is your question to?

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is a question for the Minister for Education and Training representing the Minister for the Environment and Energy. The government has been in power for four years, and the entire energy system is crumbling. The government's plan has consisted of ripping up the carbon price, slashing the renewable energy target and keeping open this clunker of a coal-fired power station. What have we got? We've got pollution up, prices up, corporate profits up, reliability down and new investment down—

Opposition senators interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left! Senator Macdonald, a point of order?

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Under no circumstances and no view of this question can this be seen as anything but a speech, a cheap political point while we're on broadcast. If the senator has a question, he should ask the question and not make a speech. You will note from the standing orders that is not allowed in asking questions.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Macdonald. It has been allowed over many, many years that senators can provide context and can provide a preamble to their question. However, by doing that, they run the risk of making it easier for a minister to range widely with their response in relation to the preamble as well as the question. Senator Di Natale, you have the call.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's unprecedented to be interrupted, so I'll start that again. Can we start the clock again?

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, Senator Di Natale.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It wasn't a question anyhow.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order, Senator Macdonald! You've made your point of order. Senator Di Natale, no, we won't be starting the clock again.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I can't even remember where I left off. I'm going to have to start again. I don't know.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I can assist you, Senator Di Natale, because I was writing it down, if you want my assistance.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Was it the bit about the energy system crumbling? Was it about pollution being up? Was it the bit about prices being up, reliability being down or investment coming down? Which bit was it, Mr President? Please help me.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, if you don't have a question, you have 14 seconds left.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Order! Senator Di Natale, you have 11 seconds left in which to ask your question.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

When's the government going to stop blaming AGL, the Greens, state governments and environmentalists and come up with a plan that actually works?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thought that Senator Moore's question yesterday was a pretty embarrassing occasion, but it was a very distant silver medal compared to what we just saw from Senator Di Natale. Mr President, there is one fact that is very clear: if the Australian Greens had had their way over the last decade—

John Williams (NSW, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We wouldn't have electricity—

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

the energy crisis in Australia would be much, much worse than it is today. Indeed, Senator Williams is right: the lights probably wouldn't be on in here if the Greens had had their way. If the Greens had had their way, every single renewable energy target that was put forward would never have been enough. If the Greens had had their way, every single carbon tax proposal put forward would never have been enough. If the Greens had had their way, they, of course, would have taxed to closure every single coal-fired generator in the country by now. That would have been the policy proposition of the Australian Greens. Would we have had any dispatchable base load power today? No, we would not have had anything that the Australian energy market could have relied on if the Greens had had their way. So the very idea of Senator Di Natale coming in here, wanting to talk about energy affordability or energy reliability, is preposterous, because the Greens have been the ones who have gone on and on over the years, seeking harsher policies that would have simply driven prices up, driven affordability down, driven reliability down, driven energy generation out of business and ensured that we had nothing that was reliable, nothing that was dispatchable and nothing that was base load. All, of course—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, a point of order, I presume?

Nick McKim (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, indeed, it is a point of order. It won't surprise you to learn that my point of order goes directly to relevance. We've been very patient here. We've given Senator Birmingham until he has less than 20 seconds left. He has not come within a million miles of addressing the question. President, I remind you: the question wasn't about the Greens policy; it was about the government's lack of a coherent energy policy and the fact that things are crumbling around them. I ask you to remind the minister of the question.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I did indicate to Senator Di Natale earlier in the piece that, if you ask a very long and wide-ranging preamble—which actually included some questions—the minister is indeed in order to respond in the way he is.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. I seem to recall, in Senator Di Natale's question, that he asked if I could help him. I was helping him to look at some of the Greens policies, some of the failures of their policies and, of course, the dire situation that Australia would be in. The Turnbull government's getting on with fixing the retail market, fixing the network market, dealing with generation and delivering affordability and reliability.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, a supplementary question?

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister talks about embarrassing. Let's talk about embarrassing. The Prime Minister hauls the CEO of AGL to Canberra and says, 'Well, we have now got a commitment.' He gives the impression that a 46-year-old coal plant is going to remain open. AGL turns around and says: 'No, it ain't. We don't see the development of coal as economically rational.' When will the government apologise to Mr Vesey for intentionally misrepresenting AGL's position?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, mark down Tuesday, 12 September, as the day on which the Australian Greens decided they stood up for corporate profits more than they stood up for Australian energy consumers, because it turns out, it seems, that Senator Di Natale has come in here wanting to champion the idea of bigger profits for AGL. But what he wants to do, of course, is stand in the corner with the multimillion-dollar CEOs and argue their case, rather than arguing the case for lower energy prices and for action in the energy market that actually delivers for consumers: power stability, power reliability, certainty that the lights will go on when you flick the switch, and certainty that businesses can invest and keep operating in the future. That's why the Turnbull government and Mr Turnbull have been absolutely clear about expecting solutions, in terms of the AEMO report, for certainty around the availability of base-load dispatchable energy, and we are working to make sure that's the case.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, a final supplementary question?

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, when will you rip up the plan that's been written for you by the coal lobby, and authorised and sponsored by the coal lobby, and come up with the plan that the regulator says works—more solar, more wind, battery storage and demand management? We know that's the only way to fix that mess; the regulator knows that's the only way to fix the mess; the energy experts know it's the only way to fix that mess; and the business community knows it's the only way to fix that mess. When will you come up with a plan that works?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I had this from Senator Di Natale or the Greens the other day. I invite them to actually look closely at the AEMO report and what it says about the reliability of the energy market, what it says about the one-gigawatt shortage in terms of base-load dispatchable energy we have at present and what it says about the further one-gigawatt shortage of reliable base-load dispatchable energy that would occur by 2022 if Liddell closes then. That is the reality that we are dealing with. Senator Di Natale can come in here and try to claim that the solution to that is to somehow further invest in intermittent energy, but we know the solution is to ensure you have greater reliability of base-load dispatchable energy. Senator Di Natale still doesn't seem to have comprehended the differences between intermittent energy and dispatchable base-load energy. We understand it. We are seeking to get the balance in the energy market that can improve affordability and reliability for all Australians.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Brandis. Can the minister confirm that despite the government's promise to reduce power bills by $550, the average Sydney household is paying $935 more for their power bill since the Liberal government came to office?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, I can't confirm that. But what I can confirm is that this government is doing more than the previous Labor government ever did to deal with the issue of energy prices for Australians. Never was that more clearly revealed, Senator McAllister, than when your shadow minister, Mr Mark Butler, last week revealed, accepted, confessed that it was as a result of the Labor government's decision not to regulate the export of gas from the Australian market that Australian energy prices have increased. One of the reasons why Australian energy prices have increased, as your own shadow minister has conceded, is a mistaken decision made by your government to allow unregulated exports of gas from the Australian gas fields. Now, Senator McAllister—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's always someone else's fault.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, let me take your interjection. Let me run you through, Senator Wong, some of the RET measures that the Australian government has taken to ensure that there is downward pressure on energy prices. First of all, we haven't repeated the mistake that you now admit that you made in deregulating the export of gas. We have regulated the export of gas to ensure that that resource is available to Australian consumers before it is available to overseas consumers. Secondly, Senator McAllister, the Prime Minister and the minister for energy have intervened directly with the energy suppliers to ensure transparency in their billing to Australian consumers. All Australian consumers can now be reassured that they will have transparency in their billing so that they can be on the cheapest plan possible. (Time expired)

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McAllister, a supplementary question.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Liddell power plant that the government is fighting with AGL about has a notional generation capacity of 2,000 megawatts. Can the minister confirm that, under the Abbott-Turnbull government, twice that generation capacity has exited the market?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, I can't confirm that, but I can confirm that we have invested in renewables, particularly in Snowy Hydro 2.0, which will bring new and greater capacity onto the Australian energy market—a measure that was always available for you to pursue, but you never did when you were in government. I can tell you what else the Australian government are doing. By abolishing the limited merits review we have prevented the energy companies from gaming the system. The limited merits review has inflated the costs to Australian consumers in the Australian energy market by $3.5 billion per annum. When we came forward with legislation for that proposal, what did the Australian Labor Party do? They parked the bill in the Senate so that the benefit to the Australian people would be delayed for as long as— (Time expired)

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McAllister, a final supplementary question.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Can the minister confirm that under this government all the Australian people have are higher prices, policy paralysis and the Prime Minister blaming everybody else?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

(—) (): Senator McAllister, I can certainly not confirm that, because it's not true. This government is determined to make its policy choices on the basis of economics and engineering, compared to you, Senator McAllister, and your party, who seem to be driven by your need to compete with the Greens to secure an ideological approach to energy policy. Our approach to energy policy, Senator McAllister, is not ideological; it is pragmatic. We are determined to ensure that Australians have affordable and reliable power, and we do that by being pragmatic. We are agnostic as to the source of the power, whether it be coal, whether it be gas or whether it be renewables. We have an all-of-the-above approach—whatever is available and whatever is most affordable. (Time expired)

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Education and Training, representing the Minister for the Environment and Energy, Senator Birmingham. Can the minister advise the Senate on what steps the Turnbull government is taking to deliver energy security and put downward pressure on electricity prices?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank Senator Duniam for his question. He, like everybody on this side of the chamber, appreciates that there are no silver bullets to address the energy challenges that Australia faces. It requires consistent, comprehensive action across all of the different components of the energy market: retail, network, distribution and generation. All of those are essential for us to tackle, and that is why as a government we are taking action across each and every one of those fronts. It's why we are taking action in terms of generator reliability obligations, ensuring that they must balance intermittent renewable generation with storage backup to guarantee dispatchability; ensuring energy security obligations, so that the systems must deal with maintenance of inertia, to guarantee that systems continue to work effectively in the future; new arrangements around guaranteed closure notice periods that can provide governments with time to deal with the uncertainty created by intended closures such as that at Liddell, for example; and further pressure applying in terms of the abolition of the limited merits review process, so networks can no longer game the system, something that has hit consumers with about $6 billion in additional costs over a period of time. We're taking that action.

Those opposite criticised us, saying that it had been taking too long for the abolition of limited merits review to happen. The member for Port Adelaide attacked that in June this year, and yet the opposition in this chamber, when we bring legislation here, then delays its consideration, delays that action being put into place. It shows the hypocrisy we get from those opposite. Equally, we are taking the steps to get more gas into the market. This is important for direct gas users as well as energy consumers overall. Just last week, Santos announced it would provide an additional 30 petajoules into the domestic market as well as 27 petajoules for feedstock suppliers. This is critical. Labor again admitted they knew in government there was a problem there but did nothing. This government is fixing it.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Duniam, a supplementary question.

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In light of that answer, I wonder whether the minister can outline what the government's doing to ensure that there is enough dispatchable energy in the system for the future.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As we have identified in the chamber already, the AEMO report released last week advised there is a very real likelihood of load shedding and shortfalls, particularly in Victoria and South Australia in the short term, in relation to electricity supply, as well as from 2022 when the Liddell station is scheduled to close. The member for Port Adelaide, the opposition's energy spokesman, said that he didn't accept the premise of that report and that he didn't think it was a problem for today, and the Leader of the Opposition dismissed it all as a distraction and the wrong priority.

We don't believe that keeping the lights on is the wrong priority. We believe it is essential for business certainty. We believe it is essential for households in dealing with their energy security needs as well. AEMO clearly states, on page 19, about finding a solution to Liddell, that time is of the essence. That's why the Prime Minister and the energy minister met with AGL yesterday, why we secured their commitment to come back within 90 days to demonstrate what they will do and for the government to consider what we may need to do in that instance. (Time expired)

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Duniam, a final supplementary question.

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the minister aware of any alternative approaches to ensuring Australia's future energy supply?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Education and Training) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We hear from those opposite, and they think that somehow there's a silver bullet, that you can just rush out one single policy that will fix all, and apparently that's all you need to do to address the energy systems. We know that that's not true. We know that their approaches in the past are what got us into this mess today. We know that the approaches of state Labor governments got those states into an even bigger mess and are getting some states into bigger messes still. We know that, in Victoria, the closure of Hazelwood has contributed to a $135 increase in average household electricity bills. That's triple what Premier Dan Andrews promised. It's triple the cost estimates that he made in terms of that closure. We know that the closure of Northern in South Australia not only applied price pressures into the market but also undermined reliability. That's why we're taking actions now in relation to Liddell in 2022, to guarantee that we don't see a repeat of those mistakes of those past governments. (Time expired)