Nick McKim (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Leader of the Government in the Senate, Senator Brandis, representing the Prime Minister. Minister, I refer you to the humanitarian calamity that your government has created on Manus Island, by two weeks ago cutting off drinking water, food, electricity and medication from over 600 people. A few days ago, Papua New Guinea police entered the camp and overturned the rubbish bins that detainees had been using to contain their drinking water. Only an hour ago, Papua New Guinea immigration officials re-entered the camp and bored holes in those rubbish bins so that they could no longer be used to collect water. Will you immediately restore the essentials of life to the people you are responsible for in the Manus Island detention centre? Will you evacuate them as soon as possible to Australia or to a safe third country such as New Zealand?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, a little history is relevant here. Let us never forget who started the Manus Island detention centre: it was the Labor government of Kevin Rudd.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order, Senator McKim?

Nick McKim (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Attorney is entirely irrelevant to the question. The question was very specific. It related only to events in the last two weeks. Will he act to restore the essentials of life and evacuate the camp immediately?

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, it is my first day on the job, but I have been around long enough to know that the preamble of a question is relevant when a minister wants to address a question. I might also say that he was 12 seconds in. I think we do give ministers some flexibility, and I would probably grant more than 12 seconds.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you very much indeed, Mr President. If there is a problem with Manus Island, don't look to my side of politics, Senator McKim. Look to the Australian Labor Party, which began the Manus Island detention centre. For all the years since we have been in office we have been working to secure agreements with third-party nations, most notably the United States of America, to resettle the people from Manus Island, and it is proceeding very well.

Senator McKim, I cannot understand your position. One moment you're saying that Manus Island should be closed down. The next moment you're saying it is an outrage that Manus Island is being closed down. Now you come into the chamber this afternoon and say, 'Will the government evacuate Manus Island?' You are all over the place on this issue, Senator McKim. The reason you are all over the place is—

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order, Senator McKim?

Nick McKim (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

He's now had one minute and 12 seconds and has not remotely approached the question he was asked. I urge you to remind the Attorney of the question and ask him to answer it.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, your question had an extensive preamble. In the conclusion of your question you asked, 'Will you?' of the Attorney. He is addressing the question as you asked it.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you. Might I also remind you, by the way, that the sovereign government—

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Hinch on a point of order?

Derryn Hinch (Victoria, Derryn Hinch's Justice Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have a point of order, Mr President. It is your first day here. The point of order is that Senator McKim's interjections have been longer than the Attorney-General's answers and it makes it very hard to hear in this part of the chamber.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Having sat down at that end of the chamber, can I remind senators making interjections that not everyone is close to the minister and can hear the answer. Please have some courtesy for colleagues so senators at more distant parts of the chamber may hear the answer after the question is asked.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. Might I remind you, Senator McKim, that the sovereign government of Manus Island is the government of New Guinea. The steps that are being taken in relation to Manus Island and the detention centre there are steps being taken in compliance with orders of the Supreme Court of Papua New Guinea. Now, Senator McKim, you may be of the view that Australia should disrespect the sovereignty of a friendly neighbour. You may be of the view that we should treat with contempt the orders of the Supreme Court of Papua New Guinea, but I am not.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, a supplementary question?

Nick McKim (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It was the Australian government that cut off their drinking water, not the Papua New Guinean government. Attorney, I refer you to the offer made by New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern to accept at least 150 of the men that Australia remains responsible for under international law on Manus Island, as confirmed by the United Nations. Doesn't your government's refusal to accept this offer categorically give the lie to your claims that the detainees are not your responsibility?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, you refer to responsibility under international law. You seem to be disregarding the fact that the High Court of Australia ruled two years ago, by a majority, that the offshore processing arrangements that the Australian government entered into are not administered by the Australian government. We've had a lot of reliance on and calling in of decisions of the High Court recently in this chamber, including by you, Senator McKim, on the question of section 44 of the Constitution. You ought also to respect the High Court's decision on a question of offshore processing.

Nick McKim (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I raise a point of order, once again on relevance. In my previous question, the Attorney did not answer the question I asked. He's now over halfway through his answer to my first supplementary question and again has not approached within a billion miles of the question. I didn't ask about section 44 of the Australian Constitution, Mr President; I asked about the inconsistency in the Prime Minister and Australian government's position in regard to who is responsible.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, your supplementary question began with an assertion, and it concluded with the phrase 'give the lie to claims' and asked for an opinion on that particular legal matter. The Attorney-General is relevant to the way you asked the question. We've already had an example in this question time of short, precise questions leading to short, precise answers. If you'd like short, precise answers, then avoid the preambles.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you—very wise, Mr President. Senator McKim, the High Court has already decided on the question of who has responsibility under the offshore processing arrangements, but, just as you disrespect the sovereignty of New Guinea and just as you disrespect the authority of its Supreme Court, you seem to be disrespecting the authority of the High Court of Australia on this issue as well.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, a final supplementary question?

Nick McKim (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Just ignore the actual human beings who are starving to death, will we? Isn't it true, Attorney, that your government is doing everything it can to escalate the situation on Manus Island and create a violent flashpoint? Do you accept that your government will have blood on its hands if there is violence, along with the Labor Party because of their silent acquiescence to your torture?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, not only is your assertion absolutely false but your own role in relation to Manus Island has been despicable and contemptible. You went up to Manus Island with TV cameras in tow for the explicit purpose of fomenting violence—that's what you did.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Brandis, have you concluded your answer?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim on a point of order?

Nick McKim (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I know that you were taking a note at the time, but the Attorney is attributing to me motivations which not only are completely untrue but ignore the fact that the men on Manus Island have agency and capacity and the right to make their own decisions about their future, much as he might not like that.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, a point of order is not a chance to restate the question. I did not hear Senator Brandis. If I am incorrect, I'll come back to the chamber and provide that advice. But it was a question with, I might say, emotional phrasing, which tends to lead to emotional responses. Senator Di Natale on the point of order?

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Attorney-General made some extraordinary allegations against Senator McKim.

Government senators interjecting—

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my right! Senator Di Natale has the call. Order!

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Brandis very clearly stated that Senator McKim's motives for going over to Manus Island were to incite violence. That is a very, very serious allegation for the Attorney-General to make. All of us in this chamber heard it. I ask the Attorney-General to stand up and withdraw.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order, Senator Brandis?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order, the very allegation I make about Senator McKim is the very allegation he has made against the Australian government. It was Senator McKim, not me, who used the phrase, 'Don't you have blood on your hands?' It was Senator McKim who made the allegation of torture. It does not lie with you, Senator Di Natale, to demand that I withdraw an allegation against Senator McKim, which your own spokesman has just made against me and every one of my colleagues.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, are you seeking the call again on the point of order?

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, I am seeking the call again on a point of order. I would ask you to rule on my point of order.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am willing to rule—

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Attorney-General is entitled to take his own point of order. He can challenge Amnesty International for alleging that what is going on is torture—he can challenge that—but we are not going to descend into schoolyard tactics where you believe that an inappropriate allegation can be made on the basis of something that you're offended by.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, I agreed to give you, as the leader of your party, the chance to be heard a second time on the point of order. I did not hear it in the way it has been characterised. The question was asked with very emotive language. That tends to provoke a somewhat emotive response. If I am incorrect, I will review the Hansard and come back to the chamber, but I'm not going to rule what Senator Brandis said out of order with my incomplete knowledge. Senator Di Natale, are you rising on a point of order?

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I know it's very early in your presidency, so we are prepared for you to go away and read the Hansard. But the allegation was clear, it was explicit, and everybody in this chamber heard it, and I'd ask that you go and review the Hansard.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, I have said that I will review the Hansard and come back to the chamber if it is recorded differently to that which I recall. There is no further discussion on this point of order.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKim, let us be very clear: the people with blood on their hands are the people who stood by and turned a blind eye when 1,200 or more men, women and children drowned because the previous Labor government, with your connivance and at your sufferance, lost control of Australia's borders. Those are the people with blood on their hands. Senator Di Natale, you did go to Manus Island to foment violence, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Are you rising on a point of order, Senator Di Natale?

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You certainly heard it that time. You're not doing your job if you didn't hear it that time, Mr President.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President—

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, I'll let Senator Di Natale continue and then I'll call you.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In point of fact, I haven't been to Manus Island; it was Senator McKim.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's not a time for points of fact, Senator Di Natale. If you've got a point of order—

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The accusation was made that I personally went to Manus Island and that I went with the express intent of trying to generate and foment violence. I'd ask the Attorney-General to withdraw that allegation.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Brandis, on this point?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That was an intended reference to Senator McKim. If the reference was accidentally made to Senator Di Natale, it was not directed at you, Senator Di Natale; it was directed to Senator McKim.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, I'm going to go to Senator Bernardi, because you've been on your feet a bit in the last couple of minutes, and then I'll come back to you.

Cory Bernardi (SA, Australian Conservatives) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is on a different point of order.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Okay. I'll go back to Senator Di Natale on that basis.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Now we've heard the allegation. I'm sure you heard it, Mr President. I ask the Attorney-General to withdraw any imputation that Senator McKim went to Manus Island with the intent of fomenting violence on Manus Island.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, on the point of order?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I appreciate that this is Senator Di Natale's point of order. The President has ruled against the senator and has said—

An honourable senator interjecting—

I'm sorry; I think it is reasonable for the President to do as he has indicated, which is commonplace, and that is to go away and consider the Hansard and consider the point of order in that light.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will go to Senator Hinch, who has previously sought the call, and then to Senator Brandis.

Derryn Hinch (Victoria, Derryn Hinch's Justice Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order: the Attorney-General, with a slip of the tongue, did say that Senator Di Natale had gone to Manus Island and that he has withdrawn.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point order: when you consider the point of order, Mr President, no language I used was unparliamentary, and it is not a reflection within the meaning of the standard orders to impute a motive to a senator for ostensible public conduct.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order: Senator Di Natale, I will review the Hansard, as I stated earlier. Motives are assigned in debate in this chamber on many occasions. This is an emotive issue, I appreciate. The question was asked in an emotive fashion and provoked a response. I will review the Hansardand come back to the chamber if it warrants a correction from the chair.

Cory Bernardi (SA, Australian Conservatives) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I just seek your ruling about whether it is parliamentary for Senator McKim to repeatedly direct at the Attorney-General the term, 'You are a monster.' And, if it's unparliamentary, would you ask him to withdraw?

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As all senators should know, there should be nothing directed at another colleague in the chamber. It should be directed through the chair. I suppose that someone may want to call someone else a monster through me! But all comments should actually be directed through the chair rather than across the chamber directly at other senators.