Senate debates
Tuesday, 27 November 2018
Documents
Menindee Lakes; Order for the Production of Documents
3:42 pm
Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I ask that general business notice of motion No. 1231 standing in the name of Senator Hanson-Young for today, relating to an order for the production of documents relating to Menindee Lakes, be taken as formal.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Is there any objection to this motion being taken as formal?
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
There is an objection to that motion being taken as formal.
Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Pursuant to contingent notice, I move:
That so much of standing orders be suspended as would prevent me from moving a motion to provide for the consideration of general business notice of motion No. 1231.
This is a particularly important motion. It's an order for the production of documents. I'm absolutely shocked that Senator O'Sullivan would think it's acceptable to come into this place and yet again deny formality to a motion and disrupt, quite frankly, the orderly business of this chamber. This is a perfectly legitimate approach that Senator Hanson-Young has asked this chamber to consider. If he wants to vote no, he's got an opportunity to vote no. Senator Hanson-Young is seeking an order for the production of documents on a very important issue to do with water, to do with the Murray-Darling Basin, which has been so comprehensively mismanaged in this country. She has a perfect right to ask for these documents under an order for the production of documents, which is what she did.
The management of these lakes, as I understand it and recall from when I had this portfolio over a decade ago, is a very important part of the way that we manage water in the Murray-Darling Basin. I urge this chamber to support the suspension of standing orders so that Senator Hanson-Young can move this motion so as to ensure that the order for the production of documents is dealt with and voted on. Senator O'Sullivan and that side of the chamber can make their opinion well known to this place at that time, but at least allow us to put this motion in order to debate it.
3:45 pm
Barry O'Sullivan (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
There is a particular reason to note. There was a references committee, co-sponsored by Senator Hanson-Young, to investigate these matters.
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Just vote no.
Barry O'Sullivan (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
When you are finished I'll continue. So, it was co-sponsored, a reference was put up, and we travelled all over the country to investigate these very issues. Senator Hanson-Young turned up at one committee meeting, disrupted it and made allegations that she couldn't substantiate. Notwithstanding that she's been confronted by both the Australian Labor Party and our side of politics to withdraw the allegations in this place, at the committee meeting and at private meetings of the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee, she has failed to do that. So her opportunity to be able to get every one of these documents at some prior time through the power of a references committee of this Senate has been and passed. So you can only draw one conclusion: again, there is a pure political motive behind this particular motion here today.
That aside, I love the indignation of the Greens. It is very well refined. They've been denying formality on motions in this place regularly. But, of course, when the time comes and formality is denied to their motions—and I heard Senator Anning made a contribution before that they better get used to it, and I would agree with his contribution—all we get is this false indignation from them about interfering in the course of them being able to put a question to the floor of the Senate to be voted on.
We all know how this all started. I put a question to the floor of the Senate to have it voted on, and I had formality denied—and that has been done on a number of occasions, including yesterday. So this will go on and on. It is a denial of free speech—although, in this case, of course, Senator Hanson-Young can't make that case.
Senator Di Natale interjecting—
Simply because she had a complete references committee where she could have asked every one of these questions and asked for every one of these documents, but she didn't turn up. She didn't turn up. She didn't front. It was her inquiry, co-sponsored with the Australian Labor Party, and she didn't turn up. There's a bit of Nick Xenophon in her—and I don't mean that to be a double reference. But there's a bit of Xenophon in her—references committees and not attending.
Senator Di Natale interjecting—
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! Senator O'Sullivan, I ask you to withdraw the comment for the comity of the Senate.
Barry O'Sullivan (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I withdraw it. There was no intention to offend anyone, guys.
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
He's a pig!
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
He's an absolute pig. He should be booted out. He's a disgrace!
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Di Natale, I asked the senator to withdraw. I am going to ask him to withdraw unconditionally, to make it clear. Senator O'Sullivan, I ask you to withdraw unconditionally.
Barry O'Sullivan (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I am more than happy to withdraw unconditionally, because there was no intent.
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
You grub!
Senator Steele-John interjecting—
David Leyonhjelm (NSW, Liberal Democratic Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, Senator Di Natale and Senator Steele-John have both insulted and used unparliamentary language in relation to Senator O'Sullivan as well. They called him a pig and used other words which I am not going to repeat. I ask you to invite them to withdraw as well.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I did not hear any comment from Senator Steele-John. Senator Steele-John, if you made an unparliamentary comment, I ask you to withdraw it.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Di Natale, I ask you to withdraw your comments.
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I will not withdraw.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Di Natale, I ask you to withdraw your comments.
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I will not withdraw.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Di Natale, I'm asking you to withdraw your comments.
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I will not withdraw.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I called Senator O'Sullivan to order and asked him to withdraw. Senator O'Sullivan has unconditionally withdrawn. That sort of language is not appropriate in the Senate. I ask you to reflect upon that and I ask you withdraw to facilitate the operation of this debate and for the comity of the Senate. You have an opportunity to address this debate and, if you wish to address the behaviour of another senator, there are other opportunities to do that. I ask you to withdraw.
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, we have endured, on this side, days of sexist filth coming from that man.
Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
He is a pig and he should consider and reflect on the standards he is adopting in this chamber—
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Di Natale, resume your seat. You are leaving me with no option, Senator Di Natale, I give you one last opportunity to reflect upon that and to withdraw your comments. If not, I'll ask you to stand in your place and either explain your comments or apologise to the Senate and leave it to another senator to take the matter into the hands of the Senate. There are other opportunities to address the behaviour of senators, Senator Di Natale. If the Senate wishes to allow that behaviour to go unremarked, then we will move on.
3:52 pm
Anne Ruston (SA, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for International Development and the Pacific) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I move:
That Senator Di Natale be suspended from the Senate.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The question is that Senator Di Natale be suspended from the sitting of the Senate. If this motion is passed, Senator Di Natale will be suspended from now until the end of the sitting day today. At any time, Senator Di Natale is able to come to the Senate and withdraw his comments and if the Senate allows the suspension will be waived. If Senator Di Natale doesn't wish to take that opportunity, I will put the motion.
4:00 pm
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Di Natale, I ask you to remove yourself from the chamber for the remainder of the day, and I remind you of the opportunity that is available to you to withdraw your comments at any point and resume your place in the Senate.
Senator Di Natale then left the chamber.
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
by leave—That was a most regrettable set of circumstances, and I just want to make clear the position that the opposition takes in relation to these matters. I have no doubt as to the offensiveness of the words that were allegedly spoken by Senator O'Sullivan.
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
All right, I'm happy to say that they were spoken. Our position on this motion does not reflect at all a view that that was appropriate. I am advised—obviously I've only just come into the chamber—that Senator O'Sullivan was asked to withdraw, and he did. As a party of government, we have always made clear, often in difficult circumstances such as today, that in opposition and in government we support the procedures of the Senate and have always supported rulings of the President of the day. It is clear from the advice that I was provided that Senator Di Natale was given an opportunity to withdraw by the Senate and refused to do so. In those circumstances—and we would apply this across the chamber—the opposition is left with no option but to support the chair in their reasonable exercise of standing orders. I do make clear again that nothing in the opposition's actions today in any way endorses the statement that was made by Senator O'Sullivan in this chamber, which I and the opposition regard as reprehensible.
4:01 pm
Sarah Hanson-Young (SA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
by leave—As the person in this chamber whom the reprehensible and disgusting comments were directed to by Senator O'Sullivan, I want to make it very clear that I am thankful to Senator Di Natale for standing up and calling them out. That is what real men do. Real men don't insult and threaten women, they don't slut-shame them and they don't attack them and make them feel bullied in their workplace. I have sat in this chamber for weeks and weeks—months—and heard the disgusting slurs and attacks coming from a particular group in this place, and I for one am sick of it, and I know many of my female colleagues on all sides of politics are sick of it, too. I will name you because you are not fit to be in this chamber, you're not fit to represent your constituents and you're not fit to call yourselves men: Senator O'Sullivan, Senator Anning, Senator Bernardi and Senator Leyonhjelm. You day after day come into this place, hurl insults across this chamber and play the gender card, and, the moment anyone stands up to you, you have the most fragile glass jaws of all. You are cowards. Every time you get called out, you refuse to stand by it.
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
This has already degenerated, I think, to a standard that is not what people should expect.
Honourable senators interjecting—
No, I'm actually trying to defend her against being yelled at. So I would ask those opposite—I know that this is a difficult debate, but perhaps we can let Senator Hanson-Young finish and, if government senators wish to respond, they can. So could we try and maintain some dignity in a very difficult time. I have not, in the time I have been here, seen the motion passed that we have just passed, so perhaps we can all reflect soberly on the fact that we've just had to do that.
Sarah Hanson-Young (SA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Thank you, Senator Wong. I stand by the decision of our leader, Richard Di Natale. He uttered the words that Senator O'Sullivan was a pig. He was asked to withdraw, and he has refused. I back him in that. However, I do reflect on what Senator Wong has just called for, and that is a little more decorum in this place. But let me say: decorum does not mean sitting by and staying silent while people bully and intimidate. A particular group of men come into this place and hurl insults across the chamber. Expect to be called out and expect to be named and shamed from here on in, or lift the standards.
The Australian people are sick of seeing politics degenerate to such a disgusting, low level. If we actually treated each other a bit better in this place, the voters would be better off, the parliament would be better off and perhaps we could all get on with our damned jobs!
4:05 pm
Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Minister for Communications and the Arts) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a statement.
Leave granted.
It is important for all colleagues in this place to conduct themselves with dignity and decorum. This is the place where we transact the people's business. I would note that, over the course of this week and recent weeks, that section of the day known as 'housekeeping', where motions are moved—where they're meant to be moved without debate—has, increasingly, become fraught, and has, increasingly, become a part of the sitting day that does not reflect well on this chamber.
Can I acknowledge those senators who supported the motion earlier, who supported the right and the obligation of the President of the Senate to exercise, in a reasonable fashion, the functions of that office. But I do think, Mr President, that colleagues should reflect on the conduct we have seen here, over recent days and over the last few weeks, during the part of the day when motions are moved. All of us should seek to be our best selves and to present this chamber in its best light as we all seek to do that which we are elected to do, which is to undertake business on behalf of the people who elected us here. It is appropriate that we do pause and reflect.
4:07 pm
Pauline Hanson (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a short statement.
Leave granted.
I actually was in the chamber during this whole exchange. I, personally, as a woman, listened to what Senator O'Sullivan had to say. I didn't take it as being sexist whatsoever. And I have no problem with it whatsoever. He was asked to withdraw that comment, which he did.
I see that Senator Hanson-Young is not in the chamber. Whether she was watching this on television, when these comments were exchanged she was not—
Jordon Steele-John (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
She was right there!
Pauline Hanson (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
She came in late. Basically, Senator Hanson-Young is a great actress—a really great actress. So she will get up and she will make her comments here. Talking about making sexist statements in this chamber or accusing others in this chamber of constantly having a go at Sarah Hanson-Young, the senator, or at the Greens is hypocritical, because, constantly, over the last 2½ years, I have had comments thrown at me, constantly, all the time, on how I am a racist. And other comments have been made towards me. I just see this as crocodile tears, as theatrical and to get sympathy. And using the 'sexist' tag because she's a female doesn't wash, with me or a lot of other people.
People are absolutely fed up with what happens in the chamber. They don't want to see this from us, the leaders of this nation. I just think it's so wrong. The chamber voted correctly to suspend Senator Di Natale. He made comments towards Senator O'Sullivan that were very much uncalled for and shouldn't have been said. So, I'd say to the Greens: it's a two-way street in here. You can't keep dishing it out to everyone else and not expect to get the same back. We all have a place in this parliament. We've all been voted in by the Australian people, and we all should have respect for each other. We may not agree on political views or issues, but the fact is that we all have the right to have a say in this chamber—
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Whish-Wilson, a point of order?
Peter Whish-Wilson (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Yes, a point of order: Senator Hanson needs to direct her comments to the chair, not directly to Senator Hanson-Young.
Pauline Hanson (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I will direct them to the chair and to the chamber. What I'm saying is that we need to respect each other, who have been elected here to this parliament. Respect has not been shown to some of us on the crossbench by the Greens, and their comments across this chamber are unacceptable. Don't start crying wolf when the fact is that sometimes the finger needs to be pointed at the Greens and at their behaviour in this chamber. I don't believe Senator O'Sullivan's comments were sexist. I'm making that statement from a female's point of view, and I was in the chamber and I listened to his comments.
4:11 pm
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I'm going to make an observation before I call another senator. I had hoped I would never use that standing order. I can't remember when it was last used. I think it was when John Howard was Prime Minister. That was actually before my time in parliament—more than 15 years ago. I made a statement when parliament resumed here in August about behaviour in this chamber, about the language, about the example we set and about how this chamber needs to operate. I ask every senator to reflect not just on what they think they're saying but on how it may be received or interpreted by another with a different life experience or perspective than yourself. That applies to a statement that may seem innocuous. It applies to a pejorative label that someone else may take deep offence to. There are very few people in politics who have a halo and who can't reflect on something they might have said that could have been expressed better. But if we cannot debate and act civilly in this chamber—which is the most representative chamber in this country and is the prime legislative chamber of this parliament—then how can we expect people outside the chamber to debate and argue and disagree respectfully?
Other people may like to make comments. On this particular event, Senator O'Sullivan, the comment was inappropriate. I asked you to withdraw. I then asked you to unconditionally withdraw, and I believe you did. It is regrettable that I had to ask the Senate to enforce a ruling with respect to the privilege of the chair. I hope I don't have to do that again.
4:13 pm
Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a short statement.
Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Firstly, I want to correct the record. Senator Hanson-Young was in the chamber when that comment was made. She was not in the chamber when I first moved her motion, but she came directly in as I was on my feet, so she was here when Senator O'Sullivan was making his statements.
I know that Senator Di Natale did not make his decision to not withdraw very lightly. No senator in this place, I would think, wants to get suspended. But that is how strongly Senator Di Natale feels about what has been happening in this chamber, about what we have been enduring in this part of the chamber. It is not just the usual banter—and we all engage in that usual banter. It is not the usual banter. As a woman, I can say that I was extremely offended by what I heard Senator O'Sullivan say—which I will never repeat. It was an awful thing for him to say. But the senator gets to withdraw an awful, disgusting statement that we've all heard, and that's it.
That is not good enough, and that's the point that Senator Di Natale was making. To utter those statements—and it's not the first type of awful statement that we have heard at this end of the chamber, which I acknowledge, Mr President, you don't always hear. That's because it's said at this end of the chamber and because of the acoustics. We have endured that. It is not acceptable. But somebody gets to say that and then withdraw it. That is the point that Senator Di Natale is trying to make. That is not acceptable behaviour. We have been enduring it for a long time. I agree with you that things have to change. It needs some leadership for it to change. But I hope never to hear somebody say that type of thing again in this Senate.
4:15 pm
Barry O'Sullivan (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a short statement.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Is leave granted? Leave is not granted.
Barry O'Sullivan (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Who denied me? You haven't heard what I have to say.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! Senator O'Sullivan, I've checked previously. I am not required—
Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting—
Order, Senator Macdonald, while I'm talking. This is a difficult moment for the chamber. I'm not required to name a senator who denies leave. I've asked that previously. Leave has been denied by a member of the Senate, so at this point, unless someone else is seeking leave, we resume the suspension of standing orders debate. You were in the middle of your speech, Senator O'Sullivan. It was two minutes remaining on the motion to suspend standing orders to allow the motion that Senator Siewert moved to be considered as a formal motion.
Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, on a point of order: how is it that a senator can be abused and attacked personally and not given the right to defend himself and explain his position? Whether it's Senator O'Sullivan or anyone else, it seems inappropriate and not in accordance with the rules. Perhaps he should seek a personal explanation, but that requires leave, and on the basis of what the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate has just done, that would also be denied. It seems inappropriate in Australia that you can be accused by name and not given the right to defend yourself.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Macdonald, I do not write the standing orders. I enforce them as determined by the Senate. There are other opportunities in the program of the Senate, including the open-ended adjournment on Tuesday, for senators to raise other issues. Leave is not granted; therefore I will return to the debate on the suspension of standing orders, and I call Senator O'Sullivan to continue his contribution.
4:17 pm
Barry O'Sullivan (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, fortunately for me—and I recommend that everyone in this place, as they want to make a determination of what was said in the course of that debate, go and read the Hansard very, very carefully. I resiled from nothing that I said—
Senator Whish-Wilson interjecting—
Just one moment. I did withdraw it. When you read the Hansard, you will see that I denied the connotation placed on my words, but I withdrew it to assist the chair. I set the scene in my speech. The speech was about Senator Hanson-Young. I said two things. One is about how she co-sponsored a reference committee and then didn't turn up. That is No. 1. Secondly, how did she deal with that? She comes in today to take up the time of the Senate with a motion in this place to debate it to get a grandstand on broadcasting day. They were the actions of Senator Nick Xenophon. That's exactly champagne. I won't repeat my comments to her. You look at them in the context of what I've just said. I could not have prepared it. My debate was around her behaviour and it reflected on the fact that she reflected the operations, if you like, of Senator Nick Xenophon in more than one way. You can do what you will with it. I don't feel one bit of embarrassment about the reference I made. I did withdraw it to assist the chair. They are the ones who placed the connotation on it. This happens every day with this crowd. They're the ones who put some identification around it. They spoke even before they thought. I ask you to go to the Hansard, reflect on my speech, my contribution in the debate, reflect on what I said, put the two together, and you will arrive where I have guided you to. I did not make an imputation on Senator Hanson-Young in the manner that they have described.
Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The question is that so much of standing orders be suspended as would allow motion No. 1231 to be dealt with as a formal motion.
Question agreed to.
Senator Hanson-Young, I will now allow you to move motion No. 1231.
4:20 pm
Sarah Hanson-Young (SA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I move:
(1) The Senate notes that:
(a) Menindee Lakes are the water source for irrigators, graziers, riparian land owners and communities in the lower Darling River valley;
(b) Menindee Lakes are culturally imperative to Aboriginal people, including the Barkandji as native title owners;
(c) water levels in Menindee Lakes have a direct financial relationship with property values and businesses in the lower Darling River valley;
(d) Menindee Lakes were at full capacity in 2014 and late 2016;
(e) releases from Menindee Lakes in the 2013-14 and 2016-17 water years by the Murray-Darling Basin Authority have emptied the Lakes twice in 3 years;
(f) environmental water was released from Menindee Lakes in the 2016-17 water year; and
(g) Menindee Lakes are currently at 7% storage capacity.
(2) That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Agriculture and Water Resources, by 30 November 2018, all documents and correspondence, including meeting minutes, relating to:
(a) releases from Menindee Lakes between 1 May 2013 and 28 February 2014; and 1 December 2016 and 31 December 2017; and
(b) environmental watering releases from Menindee Lakes between 1 December 2016 and 31 December 2017.
Question agreed to.