Catryna Bilyk (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The committee is considering the Australian Business Growth Fund Bill 2019. The question is that the bill stand as printed.

Rex Patrick (SA, Centre Alliance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have a question for the minister in relation to the cost associated with running the Business Growth Fund. Minister, can you confirm that there is no business plan associated with this growth fund?

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Forestry and Fisheries) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Hopefully that's some advice that can be provided. We are just waiting for the officials to return to the chamber—and, of course, Senator Hume as well, who would, I am sure, be well placed to answer your question. Obviously this is an important piece of legislation and a major proponent to help small business, and I would love to give you a full and frank answer. The officials are watching, and they will be able to provide information as you requested. Senator Hume is now here; so perhaps if you ask another question we can provide you the information you need.

Rex Patrick (SA, Centre Alliance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you for that very informative answer! I might just ask the question in a different way, to make sure I clearly understand what the answer was. Minister, we were talking earlier about the cost of running the Business Growth Fund. You weren't able to provide answer—which I think is unusual in the context that normally government bills have to be costed. Can you clarify that no costings were done in relation to how much would be expended?

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is no cost; this is a $100 million investment. Yes, of course, there will be administrative responsibilities, but that will be sorted out between the shareholders.

Rex Patrick (SA, Centre Alliance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Can you confirm whether or not there is a draft business plan in place between the government and the banks that describes how this fund might be operated from a logistical and operational perspective?

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is something that will be negotiated between the shareholders and the Commonwealth. Again, this bill only enables the Commonwealth to invest in a fund like this.

Rex Patrick (SA, Centre Alliance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I just want to be clear and to make sure where we are up to in terms of this bill. So we've got no analysis as to the problem; no governance rules; no investment mandate; no contingency plan in relation to a breach of competitive neutrality policy; and no business plan. Do I have all that correct, Minister?

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think that that's an unfair characterisation of this bill, Senator Patrick—and you know that there will also be significant oversight of this bill during the estimates procedures.

Rex Patrick (SA, Centre Alliance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Clearly, the committee stage of the bill is where we are supposed to tease out all of the issues, rather than at estimates, where we might in future look at the operations of the bill. But, in order to be able to inform the Senate properly, once again, I'm very surprised that the government hasn't provided these sorts of details to the Senate.

In the operation of the fund, there is a board. I presume there will be a Commonwealth member on the board. Perhaps you could answer that and provide any advice as to whether there will be any other Commonwealth employees involved in the operation of the fund other than the board members.

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Treasurer is the shareholder, and the Treasurer will appoint other board members. They will appoint a board member on the Commonwealth's behalf.

Rex Patrick (SA, Centre Alliance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you. That's helpful. Just to be clear, there's only one member that will sit on the board?

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, one board member will represent the government.

Rex Patrick (SA, Centre Alliance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Would there be any other Commonwealth employees at all involved in the day-to-day operation of the fund?

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No.

Malcolm Roberts (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have to start with an aside first, because two remarkable events have happened in the Senate this week: yesterday we had an apology from Senator McKim, and today I must wholeheartedly compliment Senator Whish-Wilson for his comments and questions earlier on. We've seen, as Senator Patrick, Senator Whish-Wilson and Senator Hanson have said, that there's no mention of administrative expenses in this proposal. We've seen no provision for the sharing of profits or losses between the shareholders. As I see it, the Senate's role is to be a reviewer, and that reviewer's role is to protect the taxpayer. Now we have a situation where the constitution of the body has not been determined as to how profits and losses would be shared and what arrangements they would be made under. We're committing taxpayer dollars with this bill without knowing any of the government's arrangements for that money, including funding the losses. So, Minister, how can we proceed with this when those arrangements are not made and we're just putting the taxpayer on the hook for this and there's no accountability?

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The investment is in a private company, and there are a number of other shareholders, so the administrative costs of running that private company will be worked out with the shareholders. The investment mandate will be worked out with the shareholders—that's happening at the moment—as will the division of profits from the fund between the shareholders.

Malcolm Roberts (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Let me understand then, Minister: the money that the taxpayers have to put in is determined now, but the liability—'Well, we'll sort that that out later.' We're protecting the taxpayer. That's what we want to do.

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Each one of the shareholders has the same responsibilities. There's only one single class of share.

Malcolm Roberts (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I understand that, but, as Senator Patrick has stated and as you've stated, the expenses are not known yet. There are many, many unknowns in this investment. So you're asking the taxpayers to pour in $100 million, and we don't even know how it will be managed.

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The organisation has a profit motive, and the government is confident that it will return a profit.

Malcolm Roberts (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

With due respect, Enron had a profit motive too. So did HIH. So we need more than that before we can commit the taxpayers' funds.

Pauline Hanson (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have raised this issue here, and I wanted a guarantee from the government: would it only be for Australian majority owned companies? Australians are fed up with foreign investors in Australia that don't pay their taxes here. You're setting up a fund of $100 million of Australian taxpayer funds to prop up businesses and companies, and you're not prepared to give a guarantee that they must be majority Australian owned. I'll go back to the question that Senator Whish-Wilson raised about the ISDS. For the people who are listening in the gallery, that's interstate dispute settlement. That is under free trade agreements. If multinational companies have a loss of profits, they can sue the Australian governments for that loss of profits—or not the government but the taxpayer. So under this—it was a legitimate question—where does it fit into in this agreement that you are reluctant to make it Australian owned companies because it could interfere with our free trade agreements under the ISDS?

Jane Hume (Victoria, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Superannuation, Financial Services and Financial Technology) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Australia will always stand by its international obligations. The explicit objective of this fund, in the words of the bill, is it will invest in Australian companies.

Progress reported.