Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Finance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Cormann. Minister, during your time as finance minister, you referred specifically to $667 billion in government debt as being, amongst other things, unacceptable, unsustainable, a mess and a disaster. Minister, what is the amount of gross government debt today?

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You are quite right: that is precisely what I have said in the past. That is the trajectory that a disastrous Labor government put Australia on between 2007 and 2013 because when we came into government we inherited a rapidly deteriorating budget position. Remember those 11 weeks between Labor's last budget and their last economic update—

Senator Wong interjecting—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Wong, I have Senator Gallagher on her feet with a point of order.

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Finance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The point of order is not only relevance but also under standing order 73(4) that the answer should not be debated, Mr President. But the question was very straightforward: what is the amount of gross government debt today?

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The preface, to be fair, Senator Gallagher, contained assertions about quotations you used of the minister. He is allowed to directly address those and be relevant. There is an opportunity to debate the sufficiency or otherwise of answers after question time. Senator Cormann?

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We are tabling this afternoon an updated statement of Australian government debt. Now, given the question's been asked, I'll table it now. I'll make sure that—here we are. Let me tell you: it is much less than it would have been if we hadn't fixed your budget mess because, you know what, we are in the middle of a pandemic. Everyone, other than the Labor Party, understands this. Yes, we've had to spend a lot of money in the last few months in order to support the economy, to support business, to support jobs, to support those Australians who lost their job. There is a context to this. But let me tell you: we went into—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Keneally, can I say something before I take your point of order. When I can't hear Senator Cormann about three metres from me, there's a serious problem with noise. I'm going to call everyone to order on the matter of noise, and I'll call Senator Keneally on the point of order I assume she's about to raise.

Kristina Keneally (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. It is direct relevance. The minister says he has the answer. He's unwilling to say it out loud—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That's not a point of order.

Kristina Keneally (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

to the chamber. So I ask him—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Keneally, please resume your seat. I am not in a position to rule on the relevance or otherwise of an answer I was struggling to hear over my own voice and probably 50 members of this chamber. Senator Cormann.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is much less than it would have been if we had not fixed Labor's budget mess. The Labor Party at the same time accuses us of cuts that are too hard. Then they say we should spend more on everything. Then they complain the debt is too high. Let me tell you: the debt is much lower than it would have been under your government than it is under our government. We have reduced the unsustainable spending growth when you oppose us every step of the way. Australia went into this pandemic in a stronger fiscal position as a result of the work we did, and the Australian people know it, which is why they voted against you at the last election.

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Gallagher, a supplementary question?

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Finance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

For the benefit of senators as the minister won't say it I will say the number: it's $673.4 billion today. Minister, can you confirm that gross—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Sorry, Senator Gallagher, please. It is your own colleagues that are preventing me from hearing your question, which will make it hard to rule on the likely points of order. Senator Gallagher.

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Finance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, can you confirm that gross debt has increased by $393 billion on your watch and that a staggering $288 billion of this was incurred before the COVID-19 borrowings began?

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I can confirm that debts continued to increase because of the spending growth trajectory that Labor had locked into legislation when we came into government. The debts were less as a result of the work that we did. I can also confirm that the Labor Party have been living under a rock, because they clearly don't understand why we've been forced to spend as much as we have in recent times. Let me ask the Labor Party: which program do you think we should scrap? JobKeeper or jobseeker? Should we cut the jobseeker payment in half? Is that what you are suggesting? The implication of your question is that you don't want us to spend the money we're spending in supporting business, supporting jobs and supporting the economy. You are completely out of touch, and the Australian people know it.

Hon. Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

Senator Wong interjecting—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong! We seem to be proving why we don't sit on Fridays. Can I ask senators to at least take a breath. I'm struggling to hear Senator Cormann's rather booming voice. Senator Gallagher, a final supplementary question?

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Finance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As the finance minister who has now delivered six budget deficits and more than doubled the debt, would you describe today's gross government debt figure as unacceptable, unsustainable, a mess and a disaster?

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Labor Party left a mess. We put the country on a stronger fiscal foundation trajectory for the future.

Senator Watt interjecting—

Senator Watt talks about spending. Spending as a share of GDP was heading way beyond. We brought spending as a share of GDP down below the long-term average. Labor were running it past 30 per cent of the share of the economy, according to the Intergenerational report. The Labor Party position is completely inconsistent. They are arguing for more spending and fewer cuts but somehow think that that is going to lead to less debt. Their position of fewer cuts and higher spending would lead to higher debt. That is basic mathematics. I know that that is not something that the Labor Party understood in government, which is why when we came into government we inherited a seriously rapidly deteriorating budget position. Their revenue forecasts were based on absolute—I was going to say something rude— (Time expired)