Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Senator Watt. On page 52 of the government's regulatory impact statement for the industrial relations bill, when trying to work out the bargaining cost for medium businesses, the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations calculates that $273,700 divided by 15.2 is $12,878. Can you, please, confirm that the correct figure should be $18,006?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I knew if I waited long enough the shadow minister for industrial relations would be allowed to ask a question about industrial relations.

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Watt, please resume your seat. Order on my left! Senator Watt, please continue.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is always good to have a question about industrial relations from the former minister whose office led a police raid on union offices and who presided over conflict in the industrial relations system and wants to drag us back into that conflict situation. It's always good to get a question about IR from the whiteboard warrior over there, Senator Cash.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Watt, resume your seat. Order on my left! Senator Watt, I will direct you to Senator Cash's question.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, it is always good to hear from you. The one thing I can guarantee is that, when Senator Cash opens her mouth about industrial relations, it's going to be a scarce campaign based on lies—and she is doing it yet again. The actual facts here—

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have a point of order on relevance, President. You have already directed the minister to my question. I ask that you again draw his attention to the question.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will, indeed, direct the minister to your question.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In fact, I was directly answering Senator Cash's question by referring to the fact that yet again she was coming out with a scare campaign based on lies. That was the question.

Opposition senators int erjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Watt, please resume your seat. If I direct the minister back to the question, I expect those that asked the question to at least be quiet so we can all hear the answer. Senator Birmingham?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

President, indeed, you gave two directions, which I welcomed, to the minister back to the question. Each time, he has flouted that by continuing with the theme of simply reflecting upon the opposition rather than dealing with the very specific, relevant detail of the question.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Birmingham, I had just directed the minister back to the question and there was so much noise on my left I couldn't even tell you what the minister said. He is well aware that I've directed him twice. If we can have quiet, we might all be able to hear the answer.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As opposed to what Senator Cash is saying, the facts here are that small businesses will be excluded from the single-interest stream and so will not be forced to bargain—

The:

Senator Watt, please resume your seat.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm trying to explain—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The point of order is again on relevance. I asked about the bargaining cost for medium businesses. You clearly don't even know that a small, medium or large business—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, that is a debating point. It's not point of order.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Small businesses will have access to the cooperative workplaces stream. This point comes across from—

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

When you have quite finished on my left, you have one of your own senators on her feet! Senator McKenzie?

Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On relevance, it may be that the shadow minister could table the regulatory impact statement—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKenzie, that is not a debating point. Please resume your seat.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Small businesses will have access to the cooperative workplaces stream, which is designed to be a low-cost option for businesses without a dedicated human resources capacity. We've seen over the last 24 hours Senator Cash hyperventilating about information within this RIS.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Watt, I'm going to ask you to withdraw that.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will withdraw 'hyperventilating'.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We have seen Senator Cash going on and on and on as she is prone to do about information contained in the RIS and trying to argue that this shows that small businesses will be subject to a major cost when in actual fact most of them will have access to the cooperative workplaces stream, which is a low-cost option that most of them will take advantage of. It's more misrepresentation and scare-campaigning from the opposition. (Time expired)

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Can you also confirm that as a result of the mistake—in other words, the RIS is wrong—the total bargaining cost for medium businesses is actually much higher, at over $80,000, and not the $75,148 according to your own government's formula?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, what we continually see from Senator Cash and her colleagues in the coalition is a misrepresentation of how the bargaining system will work under the government.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Your RIS is wrong.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Order! Senator Cash, you had barely asked the question before I called the minister to his feet, and there was so much noise that I was having trouble hearing him. Please continue, Minister Watt.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I was saying, we continually see Senator Cash and her colleagues seize on facts and figures and then distort what they actually mean. The reality is that under the government's proposal most small businesses—and I know you're asking about medium-sized businesses—will have access to the cooperative workplaces stream. There are various other routes for medium-sized businesses to take advantage of that will not include the kinds of costs that the opposition is out there trying to scare people about. All through this debate we have seen scare campaign after scare campaign from the opposition. First of all, it was going to ruin the mining industry, and then everyone realised that it wasn't going to apply to most of the mining industry. Then it was going to promote strikes, when in actual fact there are restrictions on strikes. Everything we've heard from the coalition is a scare campaign and blatantly wrong.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, second supplementary?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the figure of $12,878, the bargaining cost for medium businesses—as set out in the government's regulatory impact statement—right or wrong?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Of course, I can only go off the figures that are in the RIS—that is what they're for. But the point is that in every step of this debate we have seen people from the coalition seize on figures and then misrepresent what they actually stand for. Everything we have heard from the coalition has been a misrepresentation of what the government is proposing to do through this multi-employer bargaining and the various other changes—

Opposition senators interjecting —

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Please resume your seat, Senator Watt.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Sit down!

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's not up to you—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Watt, that's not helpful. I am asking those on my left to allow the minister to answer in silence.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Please do, because—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, I've just drawn your attention to the noise in the chamber. Minister Watt, please continue.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said, everything we have heard from the opposition in this debate is a misrepresentation and is part of a scare campaign. The reason for that is that they will stop at absolutely nothing to stop wages from growing. They were a 10-year government that kept wages and productivity deliberately low, and they are now fighting to the death to stop changes being made to our industrial relations system that will actually deliver better wages for workers and better productivity for businesses. That's what this is really about: the coalition wants to keep the old system in place that kept wages low and kept productivity low. (Time expired)