Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is for the minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Yesterday the Western Australian Labor Premier, Roger Cook, added his voice to the chorus of state Labor leaders who have questioned this government's decision to block Qatar Airways from providing more services to Perth and Western Australians. He said:

"At the moment we are particularly disadvantaged by the lack of competition in our domestic aviation market, and the protections that Qantas enjoy as our so-called national carrier …

"Qatar Airways kept running during COVID, bringing home Western Australians and keeping our freight moving …

"My government has been clear that we want more routes connecting Perth, and the cultural and economic benefits those flights bring."

Minister, why have some of your Labor colleagues seen the light and why are the Prime Minister and his government burying their heads in the sand when it comes to this decision?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The point I would make is that, under the arrangements that are in place, Qatar Airways can add more seats into Australia today and they are welcome to do so. We support—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Order! Order on my left! I should not have to call order repeatedly. It's disrespectful. Minister, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We support sustainable growth of Australia's aviation sector. Right now, as the Senator would know, Qatar Airways can fly as many planes as they like into Adelaide, Avalon, Cairns, Canberra and the Gold Coast.

An opposition senator: What about Perth?

I'm coming to Perth.

Opposition senators interjecting—

The:

Minister Wong, please resume your seat. Senator McKenzie?

Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On a point of order of direct relevance. I asked the minister about Perth and, specifically, the comments by the Labor Premier about the government's decision about Qatar Airways.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister is being relevant. Minister Wong, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I make two points. One is: yes, Qatar Airways could fly bigger planes into Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and Brisbane. Other airlines have also added capacity—Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines and China Southern Airlines have announced new flights—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Cash, it applies to you. Minister Wong, please continue.

Minister, please resume your seat. Senator McKenzie, you've asked the question, you raised the point of order. I've called the minister to her feet again. I've called the Senate to order several times. And the minute the Minister stands, you interject. Minister, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was asked about the Premier's quote, and the Premier—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Hughes, points of order also include you. Minister, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was asked about competition, and in addition to the points I have made about Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines and China Southern Airlines, I would make the point that these are national interest arrangements between governments, and in relation to competition, it isn't a free-for-all. There is no better person to talk about that than former minister McCormack, who said on 29 August, 'When I became DPM and transport minister in February 2018, I made a decision to put on hold an application from Qatar Airways.'

Opposition senators interjecting—

I'm unsurprised you want to interrupt the truth—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, please resume your seat. Order! Senator McKenzie?

Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On direct relevance again, Madam President. This minister has not gone near Premier Cook's comments, has not gone near standing up for Western Australians and the additional flights they seek.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKenzie, you've made your point of order. You asked about the government's decision in relation to Qatar Airlines, as it relates to Perth. I believe the minister is being relevant. I will continue to listen. The question is being answered. Minister Wong?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was asked about a quote which referenced competition, and that's what I'm talking about. I'm also talking about your colleague the member for Riverina, who introduced a safeguards article to the Australia-Qatar air services agreement because he was concerned about undercutting other operators or abuse of market power. This updated deal was only finalised in 2022. We agree with that principle. (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKenzie, a first supplementary?

Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

McKENZIE (—) (): The minister for transport and a number of ministers in the Albanese government have said that the decision to block Qatar Airways' application for additional flights to Australia was made in the national interest. Can this minister outline what exactly the national interest grounds were for this decision?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The first point I make is that the minister has made clear publicly that, first, she's the decision-maker and that she considers a range of factors when determining whether an expansion of bilateral air rights is in our national interest. That's consistent with what Mr McCormack said today. He said, 'You can't have an airline coming in from overseas'—

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

President—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm unsurprised you want to shut me down on this, Senator Birmingham. I'm unsurprised you're embarrassed by this.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, please resume your seat. Senator Birmingham?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

President, a point of order on direct relevance. This goes to the very issue and the heart of government accountability here. The minister was asked specifically to define the grounds that were in the national interest—not to go and quote past decisions or former ministers but to explain this government's decisions, how it determined the grounds and how those grounds are in the national interest. She should be drawn to that very specific question asked by Senator McKenzie.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Birmingham. I remind the minister of Senator McKenzie's first supplementary.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My answer is the one I gave, which is that the minister considers a range of factors when determining whether an expansion of bilateral air rights is in our national interest. That is not unusual. It is not unusual to have a national interest test in legislation, and there are discretionary powers in legislation across government.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Cite what those grounds are in the national interest.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The question has been asked, and the minister is responding.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's not unusual for there to be discretion in a ministerial decision, it's not unusual for national interest to be the reference point in that decision, and it's not unusual for a range of factors to be taken into account. (Time expired)

Paul Scarr (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is unusual that you can't tell us what they are.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Scarr, order! Senator McKenzie, second supplementary?

Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's very frustrating, Senator Scarr. The CEO of Flight Centre said on Wednesday: 'I think it's the most ridiculous decision I've ever seen. This is a significant blow. No other part of the tourism and aviation sector can rationalise it.' Former ACCC chairman Rod Sims also said, 'If there was a time to allow new entrants in this is it.' Minister, if all our major airlines, except one, and Labor states, competition experts and tourism industries say, 'Let them fly,' who is the government really protecting when it says this decision was in the national interest? (Time expired)

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm asked about the reasons why a government would make this decision, and I refer again to the very experienced former transport minister Mr McCormack, who gave this rationale, which I think might be instructive for Senator McKenzie:

… you can't have an airline coming in from overseas and just undercutting to the point where Australian jobs are at risk and Australian airlines are placed at a disadvantage.

We can't have an airline with very deep pockets undercut, undercut, undercut and … people go to them as opposed to an airline that may—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, please resume your seat. Senator McKenzie?

Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order on direct relevance. Who is this government protecting when it claims the decision was in the national interest?

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKenzie, just go clearly to the point of order. I will remind the minister of the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am surprised—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Birmingham, order—please.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Where's the actual rationale for the decision?

The:

Senator Birmingham, I've just called you to order. Minister Wong.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am surprised by the disrespect that those opposite hold for Mr McCormack. I would have thought he actually has been a transport minister, and his comments today in the Australian perhaps are a reminder to his party and his coalition friends about the real world in which these— (Time expired)