Linda White (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Senator Watt. There have been public reports of some employers negotiating enterprise agreements with their workforces, enterprise agreements with decent pay and conditions, and then they engage labour hire workers at lower rates of pay to undermine the whole agreement. How is the Albanese government taking steps to stop the exploitation of labour hire workers and support the integrity of the enterprise bargaining system?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you very much, Senator White—yet another Labor senator who has a proud record in standing up for the interests of working people, something that not one member over there facing us has ever done in their entire working life. Sadly, under the current workplace laws in Australia, that we inherited from the coalition—

Hollie Hughes (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Businesses don't like it.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Sadly, under Australia's current workplace laws, designed by the coalition, too many labour hire workers haven't been treated and aren't treated with the respect that they deserve. The labour hire loophole that the Albanese government is seeking to close is happening. Where after an enterprise agreement is approved but the employer then engages labour hire to undermine the agreed minimum rates in the enterprise agreement, that is something we need to really recognise about this, because we've seen some of the hysterical media coverage of this, we've seen some of the advertising campaigns being run by business groups, which are fundamentally untrue and are based on fiction. The labour hire loophole that we are seeking to close applies where an employer enters an enterprise agreement with their workers and with a union and then decides to undercut that very enterprise agreement that they have signed by bringing in labour hire workers on lower rates and conditions. So, it applies where employers—and it's a small number, but it still matters—agree to one thing and then turn around and find a way to knowingly break their commitments under their enterprise agreement.

What we've learned over the last few days is that all of those people sitting opposite want that to continue. We've learned that Senator Hughes wants that loophole to continue. We've learned that every single senator on the other side of the chamber wants that loophole to continue—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

and wants to support those employers who enter an enterprise agreement and then undercut it by bringing in labour hire loopholes. Is it any wonder that wages were stagnant for ten years under the coalition government when they support that kind of activity? We're going to clean it up.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Hughes. I have called you to order several times.

Don't answer back. Do not answer back. I am directing you to order. I'm directing you to be respectful of this chamber.

Hollie Hughes (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I ask Minister Watt to withdraw the imputations he was making on those specifically named on this side of the chamber.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Hughes, I don't believe there was an interjection.

Senator Hughes, please resume your seat. You've made your point of order. You were disorderly through the entire time the minister was answering the question. That is—

Senator Hughes! Senator Hughes! I'm reminding you that it is your responsibility to sit quietly in this chamber and listen to the minister. Senator Birmingham?

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

President, on your ruling: Minister Watt specifically, in his response on the record, identified and singled Senator Hughes out for commentary. You interpreted Senator Hughes's remarks as having been she was contesting there was some interjection from Minister Watt. It wasn't an interjection. If ministers want to be heard in silence, ministers also ought to show the respect of not provoking across the chamber, particularly in terms of ascribing motivations to other senators.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Birmingham, I don't believe Minister Watt ascribed any behaviours to Senator Hughes.

I'm not taking a point of order, Senator Hughes. I will take advice from the Clerk. Senator Watt and Senator Hughes, what I'm going to do is review the tape. At this point, Senator Watt, if you did make any remarks that were unparliamentary, I invite you to withdraw them.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm happy to withdraw. I'd just say that Senator Hughes was interjecting constantly.

Opposition senators interjecting—

The:

Order! Senator Hughes, please sit down. Senator Watt, when I ask senators in this place to withdraw, I ask them to withdraw without any other comment.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I withdraw.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McAllister?

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I wish to raise a further point of order, President. In the exchange just now between yourself and Senator Hughes—

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left! Senator McAllister.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It relates to standing order 184. Standing order 184(1) requires:

Order shall be maintained in the Senate by the President.

Guides to Senate procedure No. 23 makes it clear that it is not an instruction to the President but an instruction to senators to give assistance in upholding normal procedure and behaviour in the Senate. Standing order 184(2) also indicates that a senator—

An opposition senator: Are you telling the President the answer to the question?

No, I am making a point of order. It indicates:

… the Senate shall be silent, so that the President may be heard without interruption.

During the course of this question time, a number of senators have not complied with that. I am bringing this to your attention, President, and more broadly to the attention of the chamber because I think 184 is an important rule that speaks to the good order of this chamber, and I think it is something that people may wish to think about in the way that they are interacting with the President.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator McAllister. You will note I have constantly reminded senators that it is disrespectful to make comments while ministers are on their feet, and interjections across the chamber are disorderly. I have also reminded senators that they are responsible for their behaviour, and all I can do as the President is call for order in this place. Senator Watt, you were answering a question.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I've finished that answer.

The:

First supplementary, Senator White?

Linda White (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yesterday the member for Hunter spoke about his former mining colleague Graham, who had been working for a labour hire company for more than eight years. That was eight years of his earnings being $30,000 less than his colleagues' and eight years of less superannuation. How will the Albanese government close the labour hire loophole to ensure a level playing field for Australian businesses?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator White, for reminding us of exactly why these reforms are necessary. It is for workers like Graham, who was raised by the member for Hunter in his speech yesterday. It would do members of the opposition well to listen to those case studies of people who have been hurt by these laws for why we need to close the labour-hire loophole. I've actually met coalminers in Queensland in exactly the same position as Graham, and I heard Senator Green talking about exactly these sorts of people herself this week, because some of us have bothered to get out, whether it be to coalfields or to other working environments, to listen to the workers who are affected by these labour-hire loopholes. There are certain people in this chamber who like to dress up as coalminers but never actually do anything to stand up for them, and we look forward to their support when this legislation comes to a vote.

We are going to close these loopholes that are allowing workers like Graham to be exploited, to be brought in as labour hire and employed for eight years on lower wages and conditions than the workers they stand alongside who are employed under an enterprise agreement.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator White, second supplementary?

Linda White (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It sounds like, if workers and businesses who are doing the right thing are losing out, the only winner from the current labour-hire loopholes are those businesses who are relying on the loopholes to win the race to the bottom. That certainly was my experience.

An opposition senator: Is that a question?

Yes, it is a question. What is the likely impact on workers and businesses if this loophole is to be closed?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator White. If we don't close the loophole, every enterprise agreement rate is up for grabs. That is the simple fact here. We want to see workers get a fair go and businesses given a level playing field to attract staff and earn a decent income. Now, we've talked a lot about the benefits of these changes to workers, but they also have benefits to businesses—businesses that are doing the right thing. I would have thought that people who say they are representing the party of business would want to back in businesses who are doing the right thing and paying workers the amounts they've agreed to pay—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Scarr.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

because businesses who are paying fair wages can be undercut at any time—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Scarr, I've called you to order.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by operators who want to gain an advantage by underpaying their workers. Now, I see Senator Scarr interjecting and I see a number of other senators interjecting, but I remind you: businesses paying fair wages can be undercut at any time by operators who want to gain an advantage by underpaying their workers. If you don't join with Labor and close these loopholes, you are standing with those employers who are doing the wrong thing and undercutting their competitors.

Don Farrell (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Trade and Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On that note, I request that any further questions be placed on the Notice Paper.