David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Attorney-General and the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Well, I will put it to the Minister for Foreign Affairs then. The recent UK court decision in the Rwanda case of AAA v the Secretary of State for the Home Department found the courts should not simply accept assurances from other countries that a person once deported would not face torture or other serious consequences. Minister, have you sought advice concerning this recent ruling and how it impacts Julian Assange's case?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It might have been better to go to the Attorney-General on this. I don't immediately recall the case you are talking about. In relation to Mr Assange, I have made clear, as has the Prime Minister, that we do believe this matter has dragged on too long. We want this matter brought to a close and we have made statements, both privately and publicly, to that effect. The proposition that you have continued to put forward in this matter is that somehow the Australian government can interfere with a Department of Justice matter or with the UK legal matters which are before the courts and, as a former lawyer of some distinction, as you impress upon us—

That's unfair? He doesn't impress that on us? Okay, I won't say he impresses that on us; that's fine.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator McGrath. Minister, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will take the interjection. You might recall his interaction with Senator Watt, where he was telling Senator Watt what he did or did not know. I will go back to the question.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Whish-Wilson, one of your senators is on his feet and you are busy interjecting. Senator Shoebridge, on a point of order?

David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Two points: the first is relevance and the second one is seeking to sledge in the manner the minister does is deeply inappropriate. She should apologise.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Shoebridge, the minister is being relevant to your question, thank you.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am happy to withdraw that you impress about your distinction as a lawyer. I do understand—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Wong, please resume your seat. Senator Shoebridge, on a point of order? Or resume your seat.

David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The point of order is those kinds of sledges from the minister are contrary to the standing orders and she should know better.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Shoebridge, resume your seat. As we all know, this is a robust chamber. It should not be disorderly or disrespectful. I did not rule that Senator Wong needed to withdraw. I will ask her to continue her answer to your question to which, as I said before, she is being relevant.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said, the Australian government is not able to intervene in another country's legal or court processes, just as another country is not able to intervene in a legal or court process in Australia.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order, Senator Whish-Wilson. Senator Whish-Wilson, you don't have the call. You are being disrespectful. The minister is answering the question. Minister Wong.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'll repeat it: we have said there's nothing to be gained by Mr Assange's ongoing incarceration, and we have made those views clear to both the UK and the United States— (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Shoebridge, a first supplementary?

David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, in Assange's 2021 case, the UK judge ruled Assange could be deported based on assurances from the United States. What inquiries, if any, has your government made about the US government's assurances in this case?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I again say we have made clear that we do not believe there is anything to be served by Mr Assange's ongoing incarceration. The Prime Minister and I have both personally expressed this view to the governments of the United States and the United Kingdom. We will engage diplomatically, and we will continue to do what we can to achieve an outcome. But, while we are doing what we can between governments, there are limits until Mr Assange has concluded his legal processes. I have made that very clear on a number of occasions. I appreciate that doesn't suit the assertions you make, but those are the facts, Senator Shoebridge. There are limits on what a government can do in relation to the legal proceedings brought in and by other countries in non-Australian jurisdictions. (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Shoebridge, a second supplementary?

David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, if you're actually genuine about trying to bring this to a rapid close, will the government call on the UK home secretary to refuse to give consent to extradition, as that is a political decision—not a legal decision; a political decision. Will you make the political call?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think the opening of that question demonstrates, yet again, that Senator Shoebridge is upset with other people sledging him but is always very happy to impugn the motives of others. I'm not going to ask you to withdraw, and I'm not going to make any other comment there. It demonstrates, yet again—

It was in your question, Senator Shoebridge.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Shoebridge, you are being disorderly and disrespectful. You've asked your question. The minister is answering. Minister Wong, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator, if you're worried about me responding to the sledge then don't put it in the question. How about that? Don't put it in the question.

David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The standing orders actually require an effort to answer the question, and, again, the minister is showing disrespect to the Senate by refusing to answer the question.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Shoebridge, why are you on your feet?

David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Relevance.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Shoebridge, you are now being disrespectful to me in my role as the President. I asked you three times why you were on your feet.

David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Relevance.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister is being relevant, thank you very much. Minister Wong, please resume your seat. As you are well aware, Senator Shoebridge, the minister is entitled to answer any part of your question. If you don't want answers to parts of your question, don't ask them. Minister, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think the question relates to whether or not there will be political-level engagement, and my answer is: there is. I don't know what else—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Whish-Wilson, this is not your question. I've called you to order at least four times.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Order!

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It really is difficult for you to decide who's going to get the limelight on this question, isn't it? But the answer is—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Shoebridge, I invite you to make your points at taking note. You've asked your question.

Senator Shoebridge, you are not in an argument or a debate with me. You are being disrespectful towards me. Minister, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I don't know what you call a representation from the leader of the country to the leader of a country, or from the foreign minister of the country to the foreign minister of a country, if it's not both diplomatic and political-level engagement.