David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is for—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Pocock, please resume your seat. Senator McKenzie, I had just called you to order. I invited Senator Pocock to ask his question, and you continued to yell across the chamber. Senator Pocock, please start again.

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is for the Minister for Finance. Between January 2018 and 30 June 2021 the ANAO reported that the Commonwealth issued some $60.2 billion worth of grants. During this time we saw taxpayer money go to project after project based not on the needs of the community but on purely political marginal seat calculations, calculations that saw Canberra miss out time and again—from commuter car parks to sports rorts. Does the government believe that legislation is needed to put an end to pork-barrelling?

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the Public Service) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank Senator Pocock for the question and for reminding us about sports rorts, the Building Better Regions Fund, commuter car parks, the Urban Congestion Fund, the Safer Communities Fund and the Community Health and Hospitals Program. Do you remember all those funds? Everyone is very quiet over there right now. All of those funds had very negative audits on them, in terms of application and the process of decision-making around them.

In terms of Senator Pocock's question, I think it is incredibly important that the grant guidelines and the Commonwealth grants framework, by which grants are administered, are very clear about the processes for grants, grant applications and decision-making. I think there should be transparency around those decisions. It is currently a function that falls within the Department of Finance. I've been working with my department on looking at ways to strengthen the Commonwealth grants framework, including enhancements to those rules and guidelines, and I'll have more to say about that soon, when that work is complete.

I note that Ms Haines, from the other place, has developed private member's legislation, which we'll take through our processes. The work I'm currently doing at the moment around integrity, around accountability, around probity, and around transparency is looking at the Commonwealth grants framework and the guidelines that are provided to agencies for the administration of grants programs.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator David Pocock, first supplementary?

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Minister. Given we saw all the things that you pointed to when there were guidelines and all the rest, in August 2021 you introduced the Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Amendment (Improved Grants Reporting) Bill 2021 to end pork-barrelling. Now we have Dr Haines with her own bill. Will you be supporting Dr Haines's bill to end pork-barrelling in Australia?

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the Public Service) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I should have said 'Dr Haines', my apologies, in my previous answer. I have answered that question about the approach that I'm taking. The bill I introduced when I was in opposition was around the reporting of when ministers make decisions about the awarding of grants in their own areas or their own electorates, and the fact that that had quite a long delay in terms of that information becoming public. I have a view we should be providing more frequent reports around that. But tightening up the grants guidelines and the grants framework, working with the JCPAA, which has done quite a lot of work in this regard, and with the work the ANAO has done through its recommendations, is certainly the way through. I'm doing that work, and I'll have more to say about it shortly.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator David Pocock, second supplementary?

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, I'm really concerned that we have a crossbench that stands ready to legislate something, to put something in place, when it comes to pork-barrelling, yet we're hearing from the government, 'It was a massive problem, but, just trust us, we'll do better.' In 2021 you said:

… there is no reasonable argument for any senator in this place, particularly those on the government benches, to oppose this bill.

I'm interested in whether your position has changed. Do we not need to legislate something here?

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the Public Service) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think Dr Haines's bill goes to part of that, but Dr Haines's bill, from my quick assessment of it, has a number of other elements to it that weren't in the bill I introduced in opposition. I've already said in response to my previous answer that I believe more frequent reporting when ministers are the decision-makers in their own electorates is important; that is a key part of the transparency approach. But I also believe that modernising the grants framework and the guidelines in accordance with the work that this parliament has done through the Joint Committee of Public Accounts and Audit and the ANAO is also a meritorious way forward, and that's the approach I've taken. I have been working on this for some time now. We engage with a lot of grants programs, many of which are ongoing, and we don't support pork-barrelling. There are ways to improve the current arrangements.