Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Trade) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In relation to the order for the production of documents No. 551, representing the Minister for Social Services: this is about order for the production of documents No. 542, which is in relation to the University of Adelaide's cashless debit card report.

I note that Senator Lambie has sought an explanation for the failure to comply with the order for production of documents No. 542 and subsequent compliance order No. 551 regarding the University of Adelaide report into the cashless debit card transition. I am advised that the minister is unable to comply with the order. I understand that the minister's office has offered to brief Senator Lambie and her office on the report and has committed to providing the report as soon as practicable.

Jacqui Lambie (Tasmania, Jacqui Lambie Network) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate take note of the explanation.

It was only three days ago that I was on my feet, asking for the Minister for Defence to release the report that was given to him in March. On the theme of 'same rubbish, different day', another minister is sitting on a report that was handed to her in March. This time it's Minister Rishworth. Seriously—this government was all about calling out the blue team for their lack of transparency in opposition, and they promised during the election that they would be transparent, but, as soon as they got into government, what's happened? The transparency has gone out the window.

Just last Monday, the Senate voted on my order for the production of documents that required the Minister for Social Services to provide the latest evaluation report from the University of Adelaide, commissioned by the Department of Social Services, in relation to the cashless debit card. The next day, 2 July, my office got a letter from Minister Rishworth stating: 'It will not be possible to produce the document requested in the time provided for the order to be tabled, and I will seek to comply as soon as practical.' I tried again on the Wednesday and put forward a motion requiring the attendance of the minister to comply with the order for the production of documents by 5 pm. The minister has failed to comply, just like the Minister for Defence. Minister Rishworth, you've had that report since March.

But you know what, Australia? I'm not going to take a wild guess as to why Minister Rishworth doesn't want to share this report with the people of Australia—who, by the way, paid for it like they paid for the other government reports. Here is my guess—and it's not a guess, because I've been around these communities. I've done more than anybody else in this chamber, by the way; I've been on it for nine years. You tell me somebody else that's been through this and spent three days at a time on the ground there over this period. I reckon, that said, that by removing the cashless debit card it caused massive harm in those communities. I've been contacted by communities in those trial areas and I continue to be on a weekly basis. They have told me that, without that cashless debit card, kids are going without food again, alcohol is rife again and domestic violence rates have gone through the bloody roof. The minister doesn't want to hand over that rort report, because it was one of the election promises that they withdrew with some dirty, filthy deal they did with the Greens at the expense of our Indigenous communities.

When the card was withdrawn in September 2022, Minister Rishworth was proud that she'd delivered on a pre-election promise to abolish the failed—'failed', she called it—cashless debit card program. Except it's not a failed program, is it, Minister? That's why you're hanging onto it. That's why you're hanging onto that report. I bet you're scrambling around trying to work out what to do, how you're going to spin this one. You ain't spinning it. You ain't spinning it through me, nor will you be spinning it through Senator Ruston. She's been on this for a while too; she's start to finish.

I would like to remind both ministers that the Australian taxpayer paid for those reports. Minister Linda Burney said at the time that withdrawal of the card was the result of listening to the community voices. Let me tell you what Minister Burney does. She really does her homework, because I can tell you they haven't told me that, since that cashless debit card was put in. The communities that I visited several times and stayed in touch with have said they begged the Labor Party not to remove the card. I remember being in Ceduna when the shadow minister for human services, Linda Burney, flew into Ceduna, apparently to talk to the community about the cashless debit card. I was flying out of Ceduna on my way to visit the other trial sites in Western Australia. I'd spent three days on that trip, like every other trip, in Ceduna, and I travelled to three communities outside Ceduna to hear what the people had to say about that card. So I was flying out and the shadow minister, Linda Burney, was flying in, but guess what? As I found out later, she was there for a few hours.

You know what the Greens did with the cashless debit card? You only saw them when it was election time. Do you know why? They went in and met the people against the card, which was probably about half a dozen in the community. They came in the morning, had their nice little cups of tea and walked out that afternoon. There was no time on the ground. They didn't take their swags out there. They didn't hire a car and go around the communities for seven or 10 days straight. They didn't go back and visit them; they just went and heard what they wanted to hear.

What you Greens have done in these Indigenous communities by having that card withdrawn is disgusting. You have done more harm than ever before. Get off your butts, get out there and go see those communities. Go and do your job properly. You should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves. What have you done to these communities? You've widened the gap, and you are shameful.

Anne Ruston (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Health and Aged Care) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank Senator Lambie for moving the motion requesting the minister to provide this particular report to the Senate. Like her, I have been horrified by what we have seen since the removal of the cashless debit card from these communities around Australia. Most particularly, I have intimate knowledge of what has gone on in my home state of South Australia, especially in Ceduna and surrounding communities.

As Senator Lambie pointed out, I was there quite near to the beginning of this card's implementation. One of the things that seems to have been forgotten by those opposite and those at the other end of the chamber is that this card was brought in at the request of community leaders who were trying to tackle the social harm that had occurred because of issues of drug and alcohol addiction in their communities. In desperation, they came to the government looking for a solution to save their community members. That's how the cashless debit card came about.

We did see some quite significant changes during the time the cashless debit card was in place. For example, the independent findings of the University of Adelaide report that was released in 2021 included that 25 per cent of people reported they were drinking less since the introduction of the card, 21 per cent of people reported gambling less—evidence found that cash previously used for gambling had been redirected to essential items such as food—and 45 per cent of cashless debit card participants reported the card had improved things for themselves and their families. It was clearly working, and the communities were appreciative of the impact that the card had had on their communities.

But probably the most disgusting thing, in terms of the removal of this card from the communities, is that it was done as an election commitment that was made in inner-city Sydney and Melbourne. Nobody bothered to go out into the communities and consult with them about whether they wanted the card removed. It was a blatant election commitment with no regard whatsoever for communities. We said at the time this was going to be an abject failure. We said at the time the communities—some of the most vulnerable people in Australia—were going to be the victims of this government pursuing an election commitment just to appease their inner-city, ideological, left-wing mates, with no regard whatsoever for the real consequences out on the ground. To go and remove something that was a tool within a community without even bothering to speak to the communities!

At the time, the City of Kalgoorlie-Boulder stated that the decision to abolish the cashless debit card had been made without consultation with the regional community. Likewise, Mayor Perry Will from the District Council of Ceduna said:

We've had no consultation about it at all. The first we heard of it was in the PM's election promises, that he was going to do it. Prior to that, we had had no representation from any Labor politicians.

Former mayor of Ceduna, Allan Suter, stated a similar lack of on-the-ground consultations. He stated:

… despite heavy prompting from our local member, no effort was made—

by Minister Rishworth—

to contact me. I made sure I was available if the phone rang, and it didn't.

Labor went to the election with a whole heap of fearmongering and lies about income management and scared older Australians, often with false information. We saw that on many of the Facebook pages of members of the Labor Party in the lead-up to the last election. They didn't care that the information contained on their webpages and in their social media posts was factually incorrect. They were quite happy to perpetuate these lies and scare older Australians—particularly vulnerable older Australians—into believing that the government was intending to do something that they themselves knew was a lie.

As a result, we then saw the government remove the cashless debit card from these communities. We also saw their sham behaviour in the Northern Territory on the BasicsCard. What they told the people of the Northern Territory was a complete and utter lie. They did nothing more than change the name of the card. Nothing changed. People even had the same card; they didn't even have to go into the bank and get a number changed or be issued with a new card. They simply changed the name of the card. So Australian taxpayers paid a huge amount of money for a rebranding exercise that changed nothing whatsoever in the Northern Territory.

But the real travesty here is the damage that it has done in communities like Ceduna, the Kimberlys and Kalgoorlie-Boulder, where we are now seeing the social harms return to the communities. We told them this was going to happen. Please do something to fix it.

Penny Allman-Payne (Queensland, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Greens strongly disagree with compulsory income management. It is the view of the Greens—based on our consultations with organisations like the Central Land Council and the Aboriginal peak organisations of the Northern Territory—that the cashless debit card should be voluntary, not compulsory, in the same way that we wouldn't expect any other members of our communities to be subjected to compulsory income management.

Senator Lambie, I will take your interjection, but I listened to you in respectful silence, and I request that you do the same.

Jacqui Lambie (Tasmania, Jacqui Lambie Network) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Not when it comes to harm to kids; you are harming those kids.

Andrew McLachlan (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Lambie, we wish to hear from Senator Allman-Payne.

Penny Allman-Payne (Queensland, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Notwithstanding the Greens difference of opinion—that the cashless debit card should be abolished and that compulsory income management should be abolished—and noting that Labor did go to an election saying that they would scrap the cashless debit card and compulsory income management, we're two years in and that has not happened. In fact, in some instances they have expanded that scheme.

I do agree with Senator Lambie and Senator Ruston that the Senate should have the benefit of the latest review into that card. The minister's explanation—that they are unable to give us that report—is unsatisfactory. That is not an explanation; it is simply the view of the minister that they don't want to give it to us. So I would respectfully urge the minister to, rather than offering us a briefing, show us the document that shows the evidence of how this is currently operating.

Kerrynne Liddle (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Child Protection and the Prevention of Family Violence) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Of course the Albanese government has failed to provide a response, because it knows what's in the document. It's disgraceful the way the voting by the Greens, the Labor Party and Senator David Pocock has enabled communities that asked for this as a trial program to disintegrate. You don't need this report, this evaluation, to know what's happened. You don't need to go for a cup of tea, to sit in a room and hear from people in that echo chamber who are just going to tell you exactly what you want to hear so that you can come out and pretend that you've been consulting people and that you've got the answers. When you actually talk to people on the ground and walk the streets at night, you'll find the answers.

I've been to Ceduna, but I didn't make a big fanfare. I didn't take security, I didn't fly in with my plane so that everybody knew and I didn't organise the echo chamber response that I wanted to hear. It was wonderful, having been born and raised in Alice Springs, to see the Prime Minister go into Alice Springs with all his fanfare; he didn't see much. You know what? You won't see much when you've got security detail. The locals aren't that stupid. You don't fly in on a Monday and think you're getting the truth, because the bottle shops don't do takeaway on a Monday. They know that.

I can't hear you. I don't want to hear you, because you don't listen to those poor people that live with this every day. People in here go home tonight, comfortable in their beds. They get to eat, to sleep and to live without fear—but not those people. Do you know what the card actually did? Old people, women and old men could say: 'I haven't got any money. I've only got this card.' It took away significant pressure. It took away incredible humbugging.

We're not talking about this cultural babble that we hear about. We're talking about debilitating, aggressive harassment of people who are not powerful in those communities. For people who have addictions to gambling, alcohol or drugs, you're trying to tell me, through your positioning on this matter, that they make sensible, responsible decisions. That's not their first priority. Their first priority is: Where does my fix come from? Where does my alcohol come from? Where do my drugs come from? It's not, 'Where does my food come from?' That's not front of mind for them. They're arguing on the main streets—I saw it for myself—in front yards. I saw a car driving down the street and somebody getting thrown out of that car as it was moving.

People who are experiencing this are filling the emergency departments. They're filling these organisations funded by you, because you knew this would be a mess. In fact, when I was in Ceduna, the minister actually told everyone she was giving more money to these services that actually enable them. That's what the locals said. The businesses said that they wrote to the minister. They couldn't stand it anymore. I think it was a great big pile that was sent to just anybody who was prepared to listen to the businesses about what was happening to them. Some of them were saying, 'We're getting out of here.'

When you took away this card, it was a trial. It was wanted in those communities. You broke their hearts. You broke the hearts of those people that had a card that they could use to defend themselves against debilitating, coercive control. You broke communities, you broke lives, but you and I will sleep well tonight and we—I'm sure—have eaten today. You took away their human rights to also do that.

It is a disgrace. The report should be provided, but none of us really need to have that report to know what you did when you listened to the inner-city electorates who don't live with the consequences.

Question agreed to.