Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Earlier this week, COSBOA and CommBank released a report saying small businesses are living through 'the toughest operating environment in recent memory'. We saw data confirming that quarterly insolvencies are now at an all-time high. But, despite that tremendous pressure on small and family businesses across Australia, the government is planning to hit those businesses with $13.9 billion in new costs through its AML/CTF legislation. This isn't our assessment of those costs; these are the costs listed in the government's own explanatory materials. How will these small and family businesses be able to afford to pay for your legislation?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Cash, for the question. As we all know, small businesses are a very important part of our economy—in fact, the engine room of our economy. I think you would have heard Ms Collins acknowledge the pressures on small businesses right now, which is why the government's policies are targeted at improving the long-term resilience of small businesses and providing practical support for those small businesses experiencing challenges. Our most recent budget helped to ease the pressure on Australia's—

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

President, I raise a point of order in relation to relevance. This question is about a $13.9 billion cost that, on the government's own analysis, it will impose on small business through its own piece of legislation. It is a specific question about the $13.9 billion hit on small business.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, I remind you that you don't need to repeat the whole question. The minister is being relevant. You talked about the operating environment for small businesses. You went to the issue of insolvency and a number of matters. The minister is being relevant.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, you used an acronym. I assume you were referring to the anti-money-laundering arrangements. It took me a little while to—

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The stopping crime bill.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's stopping small business—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Green and Senator Cash, order! Arguing across the chamber while a minister's on her feet is incredibly disrespectful.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is about money laundering which facilitates serious crime.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You're going to wipe out small businesses in the process.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, this is about money laundering which facilitates serious crimes. We have taken action to both protect Australians and combat organised transnational crime. I appreciate that that is an additional level of regulation, but it is regulation with a very important public policy purpose, which is to counter one of the ways in which criminal activities are funded. The gravamen of the question appears to be—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The senators shouting out across the chamber need to stop. I have said today that questions and answers need to be heard in silence. If you can't manage that, please leave the chamber.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the logic of the question that the government shouldn't act on money laundering that facilitates criminal behaviour? Is that the logic of the question? Senator Cash, I am surprised, given your tough-on-crime rhetoric, that you would even ask me such a question.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, a first supplementary?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Experience with similar legislation in New Zealand shows that small real estate agencies had to pay between an additional $30,000 and $60,000 each to just comply with the law. There are similar experiences amongst small law firms, small accountants and others brought into the regime. This is real money paid by real men and women who just want to run a business. How many businesses does the government expect will be driven to the wall by its legislation?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you. I'm advised of a number of things, which I will, in the interests of assisting the Senate, outline. First, we are committed to working closely with small businesses and other stakeholders on these reforms, and there have been two rounds of consultations and meetings with industry stakeholders.

The second point I would make is Australia has been singled out by the global Financial Action Task Force as one of only three jurisdictions in the world who do not meet Financial Action Task Force requirements, which puts us at risk of being greylisted, which would have negative economic impacts, including a reduction in credit rating, and consequences for foreign direct investment and international banking connections as the country is perceived to be high risk. These are the risks that we are trying to deal with. We obviously will—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash! Seriously! You've asked your question, now listen in silence. Minister Wong, please continue.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There are obviously very substantial risks to the economy if we don't do this, very substantial benefits to criminals if we do. Again, we will work through this with small business— (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator O'Neill, your running commentary is also unhelpful.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

She's briefing.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

She needs to brief in silence. Senator Cash, second supplementary?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Minister. Is the government really arguing that a $13.9 billion regulatory cost is reasonable, in particular when it's on small businesses, and will you review and act to reduce these costs so that small businesses in Australia don't have to continue to close as they are doing under this government?

Government Senators:

Government senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my right! Minister Wong.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The information I have is that the impact analysis estimates upfront costs of $28,000 a year and an annual ongoing burden of $33,000 for new regulated small business with turnover of up to $2 million. The cost of introduction of reforms is—your point—over 10 years, $13.9 billion. The cost of money laundering to Australia is estimated at over $60 billion a year. I am very surprised that the one of the people in this chamber who talks so much about being tough on crime is actually coming into here and saying that we shouldn't act on money laundering. Tough on workers but not tough on criminals who use money laundering—that's Senator Cash.

Hon. Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! I don't know how many times, I have to call you, Senator O'Neill, and you, Senator Cash, and, more recently, Senator Ruston. You are being disrespectful.