Kate Chaney (Curtin, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That:

(1) this House establish a joint select committee, to be known as the Joint Select Committee on Oversight of the Implementation of Recommendations of the Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme to inquire into and report upon:

(a) the implementation of recommendations of the Royal Commission, which are directed at strengthening the Australian Public Service (APS), improving the processes of the Department of Social Services and Services Australia, and reinforcing the capability of oversight agencies;

(b) the implementation of recommendations of other reviews relating to the APS which the Royal Commission endorsed or specifically supported;

(c) the work of the APS Integrity Taskforce to deliver a 'pro-integrity culture' across the APS, including a comprehensive response to the themes emerging from the Royal Commission;

(d) action taken in response to other observations by the Royal Commission relating to the capability of the APS and budget processes; and

(e) any matter in relation to the Royal Commission's recommendations referred to the committee by a resolution of either House of the Parliament;

(2) the committee present reports every six months until the final sitting day of the 47th Parliament;

(3) the committee consist of nine members, four Senators, and five Members of the House of Representatives, as follows:

(a) two Members of the House of the Representatives to be nominated by the Government Whip or Whips;

(b) two Members of the House of Representatives to be nominated by the Opposition Whip or Whips;

(c) two Senators to be nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Senate;

(d) one Senator to be nominated by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate;

(e) one Senator to be nominated by any minority party or independent Senator; and

(f) one Member of the House of Representatives nominated by any minority party or independent Member;

(4) participating members may:

(a) be appointed to the committee on the nomination of the Government Whip in the House of Representatives, the Opposition Whip in the House of Representatives, the Leader of the Government in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate or any minority party or independent Senator or Member of the House of Representatives; and

(b) participate in hearings of evidence and deliberations of the committee, and have all the rights of members of the committee, but may not vote on any questions before the committee;

(5) every nomination of a member of the committee be notified in writing to the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives;

(6) the members of the committee hold office as a joint select committee until the House of Representatives is dissolved or expires by effluxion of time;

(7) the committee may proceed to the dispatch of business notwithstanding that all members have not been duly nominated and appointed and notwithstanding any vacancy;

(8) the committee elect:

(a) a Government member as its chair; and

(b) a non-Government member as its deputy chair who shall act as chair of the committee at any time when the chair is not present at a meeting of the committee; and

(c) at any time when the chair and deputy chair are not present at a meeting of the committee, the members present shall elect another member to act as chair at that meeting;

(9) in the event of an equally divided vote, the chair, or the deputy chair when acting as chair, shall have a casting vote;

(10) three members of the committee constitute a quorum of the committee provided that in a deliberative meeting the quorum shall include one Government member of either House and one non-Government member of either House;

(11) the committee have power to:

(a) appoint subcommittees consisting of three or more of its members, and to refer to any such subcommittee any of the matters which the committee is empowered to examine; and

(b) appoint the chair of each subcommittee who shall have a casting vote only;

(12) two members of a subcommittee constitute the quorum of that subcommittee, provided that in a deliberative meeting the quorum shall include one Government member of either House and one non-Government member of either House;

(13) the committee have power to send for and examine persons and documents, to move from place to place, to sit in public or in private, and have leave to report from time to time its proceedings and the evidence taken and such interim recommendations as it may deem fit;

(14) the provisions of this resolution, so far as they are inconsistent with the standing orders, have effect notwithstanding anything contained in the standing orders; and

(15) a message be sent to the Senate seeking its concurrence in this resolution.

The robodebt royal commission resulted in 57 recommendations, as well as endorsements of other inquiry recommendations, to strengthen the Public Service and ensure robodebt cannot be repeated. The government has expressed some willingness to implement reform to prevent robodebt from happening again, but we need oversight of that implementation program by a parliamentary committee to hold the government to account and ensure that our Public Service is reformed as needed.

In recent years we've seen the consequences of the hollowing out and politicisation of the Australian Public Service. We've been appalled to see the impact of this in the robodebt debacle. The royal commission into robodebt found that robodebt was a crude and cruel mechanism, neither fair nor legal, and that it made many people feel like criminals. In essence, people were traumatised on the off-chance they might owe money. It was a costly failure of public administration in both human and economic terms. The report highlighted the venality, incompetence and cowardice that characterised the scheme. So how did this happen? In short, the government of the day agreed to robodebt with no regard for its impact on disadvantaged Australians, and the Public Service, in its desire to please ministers, suggested it, implemented it and defended it, despite knowing of its unlawfulness. We must respond to this in two ways. Firstly, the people responsible for robodebt must be held to account. This should be happening through the referrals that came out of the royal commission. Secondly, we must ensure that our system is reformed so this cannot happen again.

Under our system of government, the Public Service is meant to provide frank and fearless advice to the government of the day. This failed. We've known for a long time that our Public Service is not equipped to do its job. In 2019, the Thodey review confirmed that APS capability is no longer fit for purpose. That report said:

APS capability has arguably deteriorated and is not fit for the future. The approach to all aspects of workforce management lacks strategic direction and is below best practice in many areas.

The Thodey report outlined two fundamental concerns: firstly, that there has been a trend of outsourcing core ongoing Public Service work to contractors; and, secondly, that the APS is suffering from creeping politicisation. Both of these concerns have been evident recently, and neither can be fixed quickly.

So often, recommendations are made and then never implemented. As a newcomer to parliament I've been surprised by how often this happens. We invest taxpayers' money in doing the work and deciding what's needed through parliamentary committees, royal commissions and external reviews; then we just ignore them. Here we have 57 recommendations from the robodebt royal commission and others from the Thodey review endorsed by the royal commission. What will happen to them?

I believe that this government came in with intentions to reform. They had seen the robodebt debacle from across the floor and wanted to address it. They promised to revisit the Thodey recommendations that the previous government rejected. But, in a noisy world of competing priorities, greater accountability may not remain a key priority now that they are the ones to be held accountable.

The Public Service Amendment Bill is being debated in the Senate this week. While its introduction shows that the government has some intention to begin reform, the bill does not represent substantive change. It doesn't begin to address fundamental roles, structures, hierarchies and practices that need reform. It seems to be a piecemeal, knee-jerk reaction to the need to be seen to be doing something.

My private member's motion this morning would establish a joint select committee to oversee the much-needed Public Service reform. Its scope would include implementation of the robodebt royal commission recommendations and other recommendations, such as those from Thodey that are specifically mentioned. It would report parliament every six months on the progress in implementing those recommendations.

Reforming the Public Service will be hard. It won't be quick. Without some direct and regular accountability, it will be too easy for a busy government to reject the hard parts and make only cosmetic changes. Australians need to know that the work invested in the royal commission will not go to waste and that the government is committed to and accountable for Public Service reform. I commend the motion to the House and cede the remainder of my time to the member for Mackellar.

Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the motion seconded?

Sophie Scamps (Mackellar, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I second the motion. I rise today in support of the member for Curtin's motion to establish a joint select committee to oversee the implementation of the recommendations of the Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme.

The Australian Public Service is a fundamental pillar of our democracy. Its values, its integrity and its core principle of providing impartial and independent advice are things that we cannot and must not take for granted. However, our faith in the independence and integrity of the Public Service has been rocked in recent years, with scandals such as the illegal robodebt scheme and, more recently, the ugly revelations of the politically and personally motivated machinations of one of the most powerful public servants in the country, Michael Pezzullo.

At the last election, trust in our political institutions and politicians was at an all-time low. The implementation of the National Anti-Corruption Commission earlier this year has been a positive step forward, but it's been just that: a first step in rebuilding trust in our democracy. The National Anti-Corruption Commission is limited by the fact that it can only investigate alleged corruption or political malfeasance after it has occurred. It does not prevent corruption from occurring in the first place. We must build integrity infrastructure into every corner, nook and cranny of our democracy, including the mighty Australian Public Service. Implementing the robodebt royal commission recommendations in full will further this goal.

Australia's constituents in the electorate of Mackellar were horrified and deeply saddened by the evidence presented to and the findings of the robodebt royal commission. Royal commissioner Catherine Holmes SC concluded that 'robodebt was a crude and cruel mechanism, neither fair nor legal', and the CEO of the Australian Council of Social Service decried the scheme as an 'aggressive abuse of government power'. Of particular note are the comments by Commissioner Holmes, who described in her reports as 'remarkable' 'the lengths to which public servants were prepared to go to oblige ministers on a quest for savings'. Even if the failings were driven largely by a few rogue actors, such as the former head of the Department of Human Services, it is nevertheless clear that the APS as an institution failed Australians in a most devastating way. Add to that the more recent example of the scandal involving the Secretary of the Department of Home Affairs, Michael Pezzullo. Cultural issues run very deep when a secretary of a department thinks he has the right to influence who is appointed as his minister, works against ministers not to his liking, pushes to supress media freedoms and generally inserts himself into the political process over a five-year period. In both cases the culture of providing frank and fearless advice dismally failed.

In light of these two egregious examples it is clear it will not be easy or a simple thing to fix the culture in the Public Service, but it is critical that we get it done and we get it done well. The integrity of our democracy depends on it. It is the duty of each one of us as parliamentarians to actively ensure that an occurrence such as robodebt never happens again and that our Public Service is as robust as possible and functioning in accordance to its values. Therefore, the implementation of the royal commission's recommendations must be done as transparently as possible so that we as parliamentarians have the information required to hold the government and the process to account. To be able to do that, federal parliamentarians need to be informed and kept up to date on the progress of the implementation of the commission's recommendations. To that end, as the member for Curtin has proposed, there must be both a joint select committee overseeing the implementation process and regular reporting to parliament every six months on progress. Explanations must be provided if the implementation is not proceeding as expected or is delayed. This is how we guarantee that the royal commission recommendations are implemented in full and in a timely manner. This is how we help rebuild the public's trust in our political system.

The future integrity and strength of our Public Service and hence our democracy depend on the fulsome incorporation of the royal commission's recommendations, so I urge the government and all members of this House to support the member for Curtin's motion to establish a joint select committee to oversee the implementation of the robodebt royal commission's recommendations and six monthly reporting on the progress to parliament.

Louise Miller-Frost (Boothby, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the member for Curtin for bringing this important matter. The income compliance programs, collectively known as robodebt, was one of most shameful chapters in the history of the previous government. Starting in 2015 the former Liberal-National government deliberately targeted the most vulnerable in our community. They raised debts against them—debts that never existed—and then they pursued those debts, pursued vulnerable Australians, despite advice that there was no legal nor logical basis for them. Think of the power imbalance: the government upon whom you depend for your income to survive is pursuing you for a debt, and you are required to prove the debt doesn't exist, even though it might go back many years and you may not have records anymore, but the government has no onus on it to prove the debt actually existed in the first place. For Australians already doing it tough, already on the margins, this additional stress—the marginalisation that goes with being labelled a 'welfare cheat'—we know pushed some of them over the edge. The impact of this shameful period on the lives of individual Australians—over 434,000 Australians had debts raised against them that have since been refunded or zeroed—and the stress cannot be undone, and robodebt was only ceased as a result of a class action.

Commissioner Holmes has said the disastrous effects of robodebt became apparent in September 2016, and the beginning of 2017 was the point at which robodebt's unfairness, probable illegality and cruelty became apparent. Instead the path was taken to double-down, to go on the attack in the media against those who complained and to maintain the falsehood that in fact the system had not changed at all. It took a class action that meant vulnerable Australians who had been targeted had to take the government to court in order for it to be ceased. Justice Murphy, the judge presiding over the case, approved the largest class action settlement in Australian history, and he described the robodebt scheme as 'a shameful chapter and massive failure in public administration'.

The Albanese Labor government established the royal commission into robodebt as part of our election commitments. The evidence from the royal commission was shocking: the evidence both from those affected and from the various Liberal ministers responsible for robodebt and the senior public servants who enabled it. Commissioner Catherine Holmes handed down the final report in July 2023, and it has since been tabled and is publicly available. It was important that there be an independent process, separate from the politics of this place, in order to examine what really happened; who knew what, and when; and to hear from the Australians who'd been targeted, vilified and pursued without cause by their own government. The report is the summary of 46 days of public hearings and over a hundred witnesses.

Despite efforts to dismiss the royal commission as a witch hunt, by the Leader of the Opposition, Peter Dutton—himself a part of the former coalition cabinet that ticked off the major decisions that enabled robodebt—the evidence is harrowing. It was important that this evidence see the light of day and not remain hidden away to protect those who oversaw it. Australians deserve justice. They deserve to know that their government is there to protect them, not to use them unlawfully to try and balance their budget or score political points through anti-welfare populism.

The royal commission report contains 57 recommendations. The way forward on these is currently being considered by the minister. Such shameful and illegal schemes must never happen again. Australians deserve better.

Commissioner Holmes has had choice words about this scheme and the ministers who enabled it. She says:

It is remarkable how little interest there seems to have been in ensuring the scheme's legality … Truly dismaying was the revelation of dishonesty and collusion to prevent the scheme's lack of legal foundation coming to light.

…   …   …

Robodebt was a crude and cruel mechanism, neither fair nor legal, and it made many people feel like criminals. In essence, people were traumatised on the off-chance they might owe money. It was a costly failure of public administration, in both human and economic terms.

This is the administration of the former Liberal-National government: cruel, unfair, illegal, deliberately traumatising Australians—a failure of public administration; a costly failure. These words should hang forever over those involved.

This government is committed to reform of the Public Service but also to ensuring that appalling schemes such as robodebt never occur again.

Brian Mitchell (Lyons, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the member for Curtin for raising this private member's business on a very important issue. I'm always prepared to speak in this place on the disgrace that was robodebt. Shortly after my own election in 2016, I labelled it a 'criminal enterprise'. I said that it was government sponsored, government authorised theft, and I've been proven right. Money was stolen from Australians.

For four years, under the previous Liberal government, robodebt unfairly and illegally mounted debts against innocent Australians who deserve help and support from their government but got anything but. They were humiliated, vilified and made to feel like criminals. From early 2015 to November 2019, robodebt unlawfully raised $1.8 billion of debt against around 435,000 Australians. These Australians received illegal and unfounded debts during a time that they should have been receiving support from the government through our social safety net. Instead of that support, they were demonised and forced to pay back debts, many of which turned out to be nothing more than fictitious, unfounded and ultimately illegal.

This campaign against welfare recipients did not end until November 2019. Remember, I'd been elected in July 2016. We'd been warning for two years about this scheme. They didn't end it until November 2019, on the very day that ministers and senior public servants would have had to give evidence in the class action against the Commonwealth. It was only at this point that the previous government finally admitted it had no legal basis for raising those debts against those 435,000 Australians.

Coming into government, Labor was determined to end and make right this disgraceful chapter in Australia's history. We took a royal commission into robodebt to the 2022 federal election as a commitment, and on 25 August last year the Albanese government delivered on the pledge. The royal commission exposed the terrible truths of the campaign against welfare recipients by the Liberals via robodebt. The complacency and the willingness of cabinet ministers and senior public officials to turn a blind eye to this heinous scheme was also brought to light with the final, scarifying report handed down by Commissioner Holmes on 7 July 2023. It's important to remember at this time that the royal commission was an independent process overseen very ably by Commissioner Holmes. Following the royal commission and the handing down of Commissioner Holmes's final report, the government is taking time to consider the 57 recommendations that were made.

It is important we acknowledge and implement recommendations with the victims of robodebt in mind. The evidence given throughout the royal commission was incredibly disturbing, especially that regarding the conduct of former Liberal ministers who implemented and oversaw the scheme for more 4½ years with the knowledge and reservations that the scheme was illegal and certainly immoral. Over 46 days of public hearings, Australia heard from more than 100 witnesses who gave heartbreaking and infuriating accounts of their experiences of robodebt—vulnerable people hounded by their government, with no way of defending themselves or fighting back. To those Australians, I'm sorry. To the 11,269 Tasmanians—2,505 of which are constituents of mine in Lyons—I'm sorry that you experienced that heartlessness from the former government.

Despite all we have learned and now know, many in the Liberal Party appear to feel that nothing was wrong. The Leader of the Opposition said, when the royal commission was announced, that it was nothing more than a political 'witch-hunt'—this from a man who wants to lead our country and once again exert control over the welfare system and the lives of the people who dependent upon it. Robodebt is a shameful part, perhaps one of the most shameful parts, of Australia's history and the darkest of all marks against the Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison governments. It's something I, and the 435,000 victims of robodebt, will never let the Liberals forget. They caused this mess, and vulnerable Australians have paid the price. The government is now considering the royal commission's recommendations, and it will ensure that such an atrocity never happens again.

Mike Freelander (Macarthur, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The time allotted for this debate has expired. The debate is adjourned and the resumption of the debate will be an order of the day for the next sitting.