Cassandra Fernando (Holt, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That this House:

(1) recognises that the National Anti-Scam Centre's second quarterly report shows that scam losses from October to December 2023 reduced by 43 per cent from the same quarter in 2022, and 26 per cent from the July to September 2023 quarter;

(2) observes that these results are a complete reversal of the trend, which saw scam losses double and double again between 2019 and 2022; and

(3) commends the Government for delivering on its commitment to combat scams and online fraud by investing $86.5 million in a coordinated, whole-of-government approach, including:

(a) establishing the National Anti-Scam Centre under the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission;

(b) launching Australia's first SMS Sender ID registry to prevent scammers imitating trusted brands; and

(c) boosting Australian Securities and Investments Commission's investment scam disruption activities, enabling it to identify and take down investment scam and phishing websites.

Our embrace of digital technology in this modern world is remarkable, but it does not come without challenges. Among the most difficult of them is the increased penetration of scams via calls, text, links and emails. While anyone can be the victim of a scam, I am sure most in this chamber have accidentally opened a message thinking it was actually sent by Australia Post or CommBank.

We know that scams disproportionately impact vulnerable Australians. Last year, it was reported that people aged 65 and over made the most reports and lost more money than any other age group. In addition, nearly 10 per cent of total reported losses were from people of CALD backgrounds and almost six per cent were people with disability. In a split second, people in our community lose anywhere between hundreds of dollars and thousands of dollars, often forever. In fact, the average loss from a scam is around $20,000—a significant loss, especially considering the average household has about $34,000 in savings.

When the Albanese government took office in May 2022, Australians were losing over $3 billion a year to scams. I am proud that the Albanese government was bold in its approach to fight scammers and has followed through on its ambitious election commitment. In last year's budget alone, the government allocated $86.5 million towards reducing this modern menace. A significant chunk of this funding was directed towards the establishment of the National Anti-Scam Centre, or NASC, which is the government's primary weapon to detect, disrupt and deter scammers and also to tackle online fraud. It's a world-leading partnership between government, agencies, banks, telcos and digital platforms that leverages combined expertise in cutting-edge technology to share intelligence to interrupt scams in real time.

For example, in January, the NASC reported that one consumer was alerted to an impostor bond scam identified by a fusion cell, prior to transferring around $300,000. Thankfully, the consumer received a warning and discovered that he was being conned during the late stage of the scam. NASC is also tasked with raising consumer awareness on the risks of scams and how to avoid them, a role it takes very seriously. Even within a year of commencement, the NASC is delivering results. Since it was established, in July last year, scam losses have reduced significantly. This is a positive sign that the Albanese government's plan to crack down on scammers is working. Notably, the NASC's recent quarterly report shows that scam losses from October to December 2023 reduced by 43 per cent compared to the same quarter in 2022. This is a complete reversal of the trend which saw scam losses double and double again between 2019 and 2022.

In addition, the budget made funding available to establish Australia's first SMS Sender ID Registry to help prevent scammers from imitating trusted industry or government brand names, meaning we will know that a text is from myGov or Australia Post only if the text message header reflects that. The funding also boosted work by the Australian Securities and Investments Commission to identify and take down investment scam websites, and ASIC has taken down over 5,000 websites since July last year.

While these strides in ensuring e-safety and combatting scams are significant, the government is aware that there is more to do. As a result, the Albanese government has committed to introducing tough new codes which will require businesses to have measures in place to prevent and report scams. In addition, the onus is on us as members of parliament to drive awareness of scams and provide tips for their prevention within our communities.

Andrew Wilkie (Clark, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the motion seconded?

Alison Byrnes (Cunningham, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I second the motion and reserve my right to speak.

Helen Haines (Indi, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Scams are a crime as old as time, but they're worse now than ever before. Who isn't familiar with texts pretending to be from trusted organisations like Australia Post, with dodgy links that will steal your credit card details, or automated calls supposedly from the ATO threating fines or legal action if you don't pay on the spot? These organised criminals—because that's what scammers are—are targeting Australians every day. They use lies, forgery and deception to steal money from people, people who quite often are just trying to do the right thing. In 2022 Australians lost more than $3 billion to scams. That's right—$3 billion stolen from families already doing it tough, community groups trying to make their neighbourhood a better place and local businesses trying to get by.

Earlier this year I met Nina, a resident of Wodonga in my electorate. In 2022 Nina had $11,600 stolen by a 'Hi Mum' scam. Nina's daughter was travelling overseas, so when a text arrived from an unknown number explaining that she'd broken her phone, it made complete sense. Nina said that the texts that followed used the sort of language that she and her daughter would use in their text messages and conversations, and the messages continued over several days. Understandably, Nina was absolutely devastated, saying:

… we worked so hard for this and then these thieves just steal your money and there seems to be no repercussions.

Sadly, Nina's story is all too common, with more than $7.2 million stolen from Australians by the 'Hi Mum' scams in recent years. These were parents, grandparents and friends who were targeted by criminals for trying to help family or friends who were in trouble, something we would do without thinking.

Nina and others like her want certainty that this government is focused on making sure there are repercussions for scammers and that consumers are protected by their banks. I agree, because scams are evolving; they get more and more sophisticated every day. Today even amateurs can create convincing deepfakes with only a few seconds of footage gleaned from social media. What parent can confidently say they wouldn't be vulnerable to a recording or video of their son or daughter, almost indistinguishable from the real thing, saying that their car is broken down and they need cash or that they've lost their passport in a foreign country and need help?

I won't stand here and say that it couldn't happen to me, because it absolutely could. Let me be clear: Australians from all walks of life are vulnerable to scams, which is why I'm pleased that the National Anti-Scam Centre has reported a reduction in scam losses. But these encouraging figures only relate to scams that are actually reported. In 2022, the ACCC estimated that 30 per cent of scam victims never report the crime to anyone and only 13 per cent report the scam to the ACCC. While the recent figures are encouraging, it's clear that there is still a huge problem. What I hear loud and clear from Nina and the Consumer Action Law Centre is that Australians are being left to fight this onslaught of scams on their own. Nina says that 'there is inadequate legislation in place to protect consumers, and the banks are leaving their customers in the cold'.

So it's clear that the government can't delay its scams code framework any longer. The proposed framework will create minimum consistent obligations for businesses to prevent, detect, disrupt and respond to scams. I support a strong framework because for too long it's been up to individuals to carry all of the risk and all the consequences. Nina and her supporters want to see the banks forced to reimburse customers who are scammed. They believe that the banks will only step up and take this seriously when it's their money on the line.

I wait to see whether this government will create a framework with teeth that will protect people like Nina—and protect people like the Wangaratta and District Men's Shed. They too succumbed to a scam and lost $25,000, I believe, and some of that money came from a Commonwealth grant. We had an enormous community event supported by all sorts of people from right across the Wangaratta community to help the Wangaratta men's shed recover their losses, and I'm glad to say we did.

I look forward to welcoming the Assistant Treasurer to the lovely, beautiful town of Myrtleford, in my electorate of Indi. I'm very grateful to the minister for agreeing to come and do a workshop with us in June to discuss this really significant issue. I know people will come from far and wide to attend this. There is great concern about this in my community. It's really important. Scams are becoming more and more sophisticated every day, and they could be coming for any one of us.

Jerome Laxale (Bennelong, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

One afternoon I found myself listening to Ben Fordham's podcast on 2GB and I heard the story of Paul Trefry. Paul was contacted via a text message by ANZ and advised that his business account had been compromised and that he just had two options to solve this: cancel his credit card or deposit his money into a new account. Paul transferred over $130,000 to a bank account owned by scammers. They had spoofed ANZ's SMS service and contacted customers hoping to trick them out of their hard earned money. Paul's story is just one of many from victims of scammers.

Since I've been raising this issue in my capacity on the House Economics Committee, I've heard countless heartbreaking stories of people falling victim to scammers and I've learned that anyone can fall victim to these heinous criminals. When the Albanese government came to office, Australians were losing over $3 billion a year to scammers. Online, text message, phone and in-person scams were the main ways that Aussies lost money. Disturbingly, the amount lost to scams had doubled each and every year from 2019 to 2022.

We came to government and we took action. As a government, we have established the National Anti-Scam Centre, we've rolled out Australia's first SMS Sender ID registry to stop the spoofing which Paul was subjected to and we've bolstered the Australian Securities and Investments Commission's capacity to shut down fraudulent websites. The government have made significant inroads, but of course we know there's more to do. We came to government with an ambitious, aggressive antiscam agenda, and the results prove that we are delivering on our commitment to combat scammers. In last year's budget, $86½ million was invested into some of the programs mentioned earlier.

I've had the opportunity to see how fostering collaboration across industries, through the establishment of the National Anti-Scam Centre, is vital in combating scams. The necessity for a cohesive approach was particularly highlighted during our discussions in open public hearings with the big four banks, where it was apparent that each bank had its own approach to addressing scams. However, the data and experts showed consistently that these disparate strategies were insufficient. It has become clear that industry players must align with regulatory bodies such as the ACCC and ASIC to form a unified front against scammers. The collaborative effort is crucial for enhancing the effectiveness of current antiscam measures in safeguarding the interests of consumers.

Since July last year the losses we've seen from scams have started to come down. The National Anti-Scam Centre's recent quarterly report highlighted a 43 per cent reduction in scam losses in the last quarter of 2023 compared to the same period of previous years, signalling a promising trend reversal. However, recognising the evolving and cyclical nature of scams, the government has committed to introducing stringent new codes outlining the responsibilities of the private sector to deal with scam activities. Banks, telecommunications providers and digital messaging and social media platforms will be required to implement measures to detect, disrupt and prevent scams, underlining a more aggressive stance against these fraudulent activities. Where these essential service providers fall foul of these codes they will be forced to pay, as they should.

While the banks and telcos are seemingly working with the government on this code, it's clear from advice I've received and from discussions I've had that digital and social media platforms are not doing enough. They often attract plenty of attention by scammers through their messenger services and they simply must step up to the challenge we all face. Digital messaging and social media services simply cannot wipe their hands of this responsibility. On telecommunications: the government has pioneered the first SMS ID register. That has been successful and it's an innovative measure to curtail scammers' abilities to masquerade as ANZ, Linkt or myGov by falsifying sender IDs.

We're taking a number of serious measures to combat scams. For too long this was put in the too-hard basket and it's clear that the market has failed to step in where it needs to. Under the leadership of the Assistant Treasurer, we'll put up this code and get some action.

Monique Ryan (Kooyong, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise to support the member for Holt's motion regarding the scourge of scams in our community. I do support the government's commitment to combat scams through investment in a whole-of-government approach. However, I continue to hear from people in my electorate of Kooyong who have, through no fault of their own, lost thousands—and, occasionally, millions—of dollars to organised criminals in sophisticated scams. So I'm concerned that the government's claims of success in addressing this issue may have been overstated.

The National Anti-Scam Centre data is likely only the tip of the scams iceberg. It only captures those scams which are reported to the ACCC's Scamwatch, a process involving a time-consuming online form. It doesn't include scams reported solely to other agencies, such as the police, the banks or even the telcos. In fact, ABS data for the 2023 financial year indicates that only 8.7 per cent of people who experience a scam report it to a government organisation or department. Furthermore, the NASC quarterly report likely underreports small-scale scams which affect large groups of Australians. These are scams like online buying and selling schemes; these are on the rise compared to investment scams, which are in decline. And compared to the September 2020 third quarter, scams in culturally and linguistically diverse communities are up by 82 per cent. I'm really concerned that not enough is being done to protect vulnerable communities, such as the 31,000 Chinese Australians in my electorate.

Clearly, the problem of scams has not gone away, so I'm calling on the government to do more: firstly, by introducing a mandatory contingent reimbursement scheme for banks to ensure that blameless scam victims are fully reimbursed; and, secondly, by ensuring that scammers can no longer impersonate the telephone numbers of legitimate businesses and agencies, particularly banks. The Australian Communication and Media Authority, ACMA, is implementing a voluntary SMS sender ID registry. I feel this registry has to be mandatory for organisations that use SMS sender IDs. For example, HSBC customers have been targeted by sophisticated bank impersonation scams since at least April 2023.

Recently I was alarmed to learn that HSBC's phone number in Australia is still in use by scammers who continue to pray on citizens, like the couple from Canterbury in my electorate, who were recently defrauded of nearly $50,000 after receiving a phone call from someone who claimed to work for the HSBC fraud team. My constituent said: 'He was very convincing and very well spoken. He knew my name, number, transaction limit, and the last four digits of my credit card number. He knew information that only the bank could know. So there was no reason for me to believe that I was talking to anyone other than the HSBC.' The scammer sent text messages to her. These appeared to be from HSBC, as they were on the same text thread as the previous messages she had received from the bank. He took control of the account and then conducted unauthorised transactions. His ability to do so relates not to any failure of my constituent but to the lack of security features at HSBC. Her husband was alerted to the unusual transaction and he called HSBC straightaway asking them to suspend their accounts. That was four minutes after the first initial fraudulent transfer. It was only minutes before a second fraudulent transfer, which still went through.

My constituents report that HSBC has consistently ignored the request for an update on their case in recent times and that they've waited more than two months to be assigned a case manager at AFCA. That is not reflective of a functional scam response system. The government's efforts to tackle scams are encouraging, no doubt. But we have to do more to strengthen our banking and telecommunication systems, resist the growing levels of organised crime behind scams, protect our constituents and give them back their faith, not just in our banks but also in our telecommunications systems. These changes have to include mandates for our banks to always act effectively and resolutely to protect their customers.

Steve Georganas (Adelaide, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I too rise to speak on this very important private members motion on scams and different ways of siphoning money from people using our telcos, our internet, our social media et cetera. Recently I had a scam forum in my electorate, where we were joined by about 80 people. I asked everyone in that room who had been scammed. Nearly a quarter of the room put their hand up. I was quite surprised by that. These were people who were quite intelligent, people who had professions, people who were pensioners—there was a whole cross-section. One of the things to remember is that, if something comes up on your phone asking you to press a button or to send or to okay, always take a moment to think about what it is. If you're unsure or you have a bad feeling about it, don't do it. Speak to someone; show it to someone et cetera.

Recently I received a phone call from a supposed associate of mine whom I've known and met at different conferences overseas over the years. He's a member of parliament in Argentina. I received a call saying that he was coming to Adelaide on an emergency to see his sister who had tragically been killed in an accident in Adelaide. I asked the question: why is he ringing me? They were supposedly stuck in the Philippines in transit to Adelaide and wouldn't let him go without paying for a visa in the Philippines for a thousand euros. It was very convincing because this person had the association and the conference that we had attended together. This person also had names of people who were at the conference with us. In the end, I wouldn't agree to it, and they said they would get him to ring me. They did get this particular person to ring me. It wasn't the politician that I knew in Argentina. I couldn't remember his voice, because we'd only met on a number of occasions in the last 10 years and he had a very heavy Spanish accent. At that point, we decided to make an inquiry—and I was willing to help because I knew this person—to his office in Buenos Aires, and we were told, 'No, he is here in his office.' That is the extent that they go to. How did this person connect all of this? He had gone on to the website of this conference that takes place every two years in Athens and had seen photographs of me and him and other people who had been attending the conference on a regular basis, connected it all and just tried to devise this scam. That's how elaborate they there. So beware. If something doesn't feel right, check and then check again. I was very lucky not to have US$1,000 siphoned out of me that day.

Scams happen a lot, and many people don't report them as well. Research shows that, despite the prevalence of scams in Australia, 33 per cent of Australians who fell victim to a scam did not report it due to various factors, including 44 per cent feeling like it was their fault, 33 per cent believing that it wouldn't be worth the effort and 26 per cent feeling embarrassed or ashamed. When I talk to victims, I want them to know: don't blame yourself. Scams can happen to anyone, with no exceptions. They should be reported.

This government is tackling scams. Last year's budget set aside $86.5 million to set up the National Anti-Scam Centre to stop scams in their tracks and to create Australia's first SMS sender ID registry to stop scammers from impersonating trusted brands. It's helped ASIC take down over 5,000 investment scam websites since July last year. The NASC is the government's primary weapon to detect, disrupt and deter scammers. The NASC brings together government experts with private sector partners like banks and law enforcement to stop scams in their tracks, using the latest technology. Just last month the NASC saved someone from losing $300,000 to a fake bond scam. It also educates people about scams and how to keep safe. Scams impact our entire country and we need to stop them. We need to do everything possible to do so.

Dai Le (Fowler, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We've just heard from members in the House today about the rise of scams and the devastating impact they have on individuals. Across my electorate of Fowler and, as we've heard, across the country, we are hearing about people falling victim to phishing and spoofing scams, with scammers impersonating organisations such as banks and providers to access their money and steal their identity. Some of the stories are just horrific.

A constituent came to see me distressed that she had lost $50,000 from a bank account shared with her family. This was her whole entire life savings gone. As you can imagine this financial setback led to significant mental distress and psychological anguish as she struggled to find support and plan forward. Another constituent was scammed out of $49,000 which was intended to be used for a knee replacement surgery for her mum. We are talking about people who have worked so hard to save this kind of money and, suddenly, it's all gone. Not only did this constituent lose money but it also impacted on her ability to work due to mental stress and, as you can only imagine, the shock. In addition, she didn't know where to turn to and there was limited support to recall these funds, which left her overwhelmingly troubled and plagued with uncertainty.

A Vietnamese-speaking constituent requested assistance after losing $200,000 from her joint bank account with her husband. She was distraught and contacted our office daily, seeking updates and further information. In aiding and facilitating communication between the constituent and the Australian Financial Complaints Authority, our office had to provide translation of the responses since she was unable to read and understand them herself.

These stories are just a few I wanted to share, but there are hundreds, if not thousands, more. They are now becoming so normal it's scary. How can we trust to share our information with institutions or to put our money in banks if these scam stories are popping up daily? Even on my own phone I get text messages from strange mobile numbers asking me to click on links either because so-called Australia Post has failed to deliver a parcel or I have failed to pay my Linkt toll account.

In my Fowler electorate, home to more than 170,000 constituents, with over 150 ethnicities, my constituents are becoming highly susceptible to fraud and spoofing scams. Therefore I strongly call on the government to ensure that customised assistance and financial education be made available to non-English-speaking communities. With the cost-of-living crisis, many constituents in my area are desperate to get out of debt and alleviate their financial burdens. Much of the Fowler area falls within the first quintile of the Index of Relative Socio-economic Disadvantage, the lowest score, which indicates that the suburbs in Fowler are more disadvantaged and vulnerable to cost-of-living pressures compared to other electorates. Many scammers exploit this vulnerability and target individuals seeking relief from the rising costs of bills.

I have raised my concerns with the Assistant Treasurer and Minister for Financial Services about the need to tighten our privacy laws to prevent or at least de-escalate the rise in scams—in particular, how our personal data is harvested and sold on to third parties. I want to thank the minister for his time and engagement with me on the matter, especially when it comes to providing assistance to our culturally and linguistically diverse communities.

I also recognise that the National Anti-Scam Centre has made significant strides in collaborating with law enforcement, governments and consumer groups to combat scams in Australia. I acknowledge that the National Anti-Scam Centre is a substantial step forward to addressing the gaps of protecting individuals from scammers. However, I must point out that there are still shortcomings regarding the language component. These scams are becoming more of a prominent presence in my Fowler community, and, with our demographic mostly consisting of non-English-speaking migrants, action must be undertaken to reduce the barriers to accessibility, starting with addressing the linguistic challenges.

As long as I'm in this House, I will continue to work and advocate for a stronger focus on providing in-language assistance to those that struggle with understanding English, especially when it comes to our legislation. I emphasise that there must be a focus on inclusivity in education and that awareness of emerging scams be made available and accessible to both English-speaking and non-English-speaking citizens. It is my belief that, if this pain point is adequately addressed, constituents in my area will be better protected from scammers seeking to exploit them.

Dan Repacholi (Hunter, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I cannot think of a lower person than someone who targets vulnerable people in our community and scams them out of their hard-earned money. Instead of getting a job done and working hard to make money for themselves—

A division having been called in the House of Representatives—

Sitting suspended from 18:02 to 18:35

As I was saying, instead of getting a job and working hard to make money for themselves, these scumbags think they have the right to lure people in and gain their trust and their bank details before stealing their money. Sadly, I see this all too often in my electorate. Regularly I have people who have been scammed come into my office. Not only have they lost almost everything that they have worked hard for, but they're also living in fear, worried it might happen to them again. This is the sad reality of the world we live in today, and urgent action is needed to make sure that fewer people are having to experience what it's like to fall victim to scammers.

Recently I received a message on my Instagram from Michael Jackson. It may shock some of you, but, according to his message, he's apparently alive! But the poor bloke is doing it pretty tough, and he needs me to send him some money. Even though he signed off with a 'hee hee', of course I knew this was a scam. But not everyone can so easily identify what is and isn't a scam. Last year also saw a number of people, including some media outlets, fall for a scam that involved the Big Merino being moved from Goulburn to the Hunter Valley. Many scammers come up with ways to get your money that are a lot more creative and more brilliant than pretending to be Michael Jackson or moving a giant sheep, and too many people are being taken advantage of.

Being scammed can impact more than just your money. I want to share with you the story of an older lady who came into my office not too long ago. She had been scammed and lost over $10,000. There was nothing she could do about that and the money, except to wait for the bank to go through their process. But the whole experience had such an impact on her that, during the weeks since the scam, she had been living in fear, worrying that every call could be a scam and not knowing who to trust. She explained to me that her whole life had been turned upside down. She went from being a confident social person to being someone who was cautious and often too worried to even leave her home. Stories like this one are the reason that this government has such a strong focus on preventing scams.

Before we were in government, scams were rampant. Between 2019 and 2020, the number of people that were losing money from scams doubled not once but twice. In fact, when the Albanese Labor government came to office, Australians were losing over $3 billion a year to scams. What these figures show is that the work we're doing to tackle scams is actually working. According to the National Anti-Scam Centre's second quarter report, scam losses from October to December 2023 reduced by 43 per cent from the same quarter in 2022 and by 26 per cent from the July to September 2023 quarter. This means that more money is staying in the pockets of those who have worked hard for it.

Our focus on this issue has been extensive. We've introduced a number of measures aimed at preventing scams and helping Australians to feel a bit more secure. This was one of our major commitments, and we have delivered on it. In total, we have invested over $86.5 million towards a coordinated whole-of-government approach which has seen the establishment of the National Anti-Scam Centre, under the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. We have also introduced Australia's first SMS Sender ID registry to prevent scammers imitating trusted brands, and we've boosted the Australian Securities and Investments Commission's investment in scam disruption activities, making them able to identify and take down investment scams and phishing websites.

I am proud of the work that our government has done to prevent scams in Australia. Nobody deserves to have their hard-earned money stolen, and they certainly do not deserve the stress that comes with this situation. I hope the action we have taken as a government and the action that we'll continue to take helps people feel just a little bit more at ease when it comes to scams. So many are happening around at the moment. People just need to be aware. If it sounds too good to be true, it is too good to be true. As much as 'Michael Jackson' would like to see my cash, with the little 'hee hee' at the end, he won't be seeing any of our money from the Hunter. Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and please make sure you watch out for scammers.

Russell Broadbent (Monash, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'll follow on from the member for Hunter and say that there have been two scams on my phone today. You had 'Michael Jackson'; I had the 'port authority' or whatever it was telling me I hadn't paid my bill! The point is that the member for Hunter was very right and very clear when he said that the government has spent $86 million, planned over a number of years, to organise this operation. It's beginning to work, but it's not just government's responsibility. It's the responsibility of the individual, the telcos, the banks and anybody else who can do anything we possibly can as a nation, a people and a tribe—tribe Australia. It's your money, your money and your money. One fellow I read about here, after my staff did the research, was about to transfer $25 million. He is an executive—a CEO of an organisation. He was about to transfer, but he made a phone call to his own bank just before he transferred. They said, 'It's a scam.'

My own family member was building a house, and there was a due payment to be made. It a considerable amount of money for the new house they were building, and it was to go to the builder. My brother-in-law was lucky. He knew the builder, who was a friend of his. He knew the daughter was away at the time. When he received the email, which was correct—the money and bank account were correct—it just had a different bank account to be paid into. He said: 'I'll pay it. No, no; I'll give George a ring.' So he gave George a ring. Sure enough, George said: 'No, I haven't changed my bank accounts. They're exactly the same as they were before.' My brother-in-law said, 'This is a definite change to another account.' He would have transferred a substantial amount of money to an organisation; it would have been gone, out of that account, in minutes.

Another lady was insistent after a phone call. She was an older lady. She went through every one of her bank accounts and got all the money out, because that's what she'd been instructed to do. She took it to the Commonwealth Bank to bank it into this particular account. The Commonwealth Bank saved her. They said, 'This is a scam account you're paying into.' Embarrassed, she went back and put all her money back into the other accounts, even though the staff at the other banks had said: 'Are you being scammed? Are you being scammed? Are you being scammed?'

Too many people are being scammed. These people are smart. And they find ways—whatever way they can. They know you well. When I say, 'They know you well,' I mean this. As somebody said, they had the last three digits of their bank card, their name, their wife's name, their children's names and associations they had, and they sounded just like the bank. They will send you documentation that mimics the bank's documentation. You would swear you're actually talking to the organisation that they say they are. I had a Telstra scam, and they had me on the line for 10 minutes before I thought, 'Hang on, why are you asking me these questions about accounts that I don't have?' Then I realised it was a scam. I just thought it was Telstra ringing me, being courteous and looking after me. I was being honoured and favoured. It's great to have them look after you.

I do have proper phone calls from people that say: 'I'm your account manager from such-and-such a bank. You've got some money there; do you want to do something with it?' And it turns out they're legitimate.

What we have to do, as a government, is ask, 'Righto, how can we best protect our people?' and actually put the work in. But it's not just about what the government can do, and it can't just be about the banks repaying everything that's lost, because then Australia would just become honeypot for them. They'd know that the banks would repay it, so they'd say, 'Let's get into Australia!' No, we have to be better than; we are better than that. We cannot afford to have $3,000 million taken out of our economy each year. It's money owned by decent individuals—smart, bright people. We can't do that! It has to change and it has to be a whole-of-government, whole-of-banks, whole-of-telcos and whole-of-everybody-else-involved-in-it thing to make the difference. This is our chance now to get onto these people, to make the difference and to make Australia a no-go zone for scammers.

Rebekha Sharkie (Mayo, Centre Alliance) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There being no further speakers, the debate is adjourned and the resumption of the debate will be made an order of the day for the next sitting.