Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have received a letter from the honourable member for Warringah proposing that a definite matter of public importance be submitted to the House for discussion, namely:

The need for the government to do more to protect Australians from scams, especially those that involve electronic transfer of funds.

I call upon those honourable members who approve of the proposed discussion to rise in their places.

More than the number of members required by the standing orders having risen in their places—

Zali Steggall (Warringah, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Scams are everywhere. We get random phone calls claiming to be from Melbourne or somewhere in Queensland. We get text messages at 4 am in the morning saying we need to pay our tolls urgently at the link provided. Ninety-six per cent of Australians were exposed to scams in the five years up to 2021 alone, and that is increasing. In 2023, we lost some $2.74 billion to scammers. That's more than $5,200 per minute.

In the UK, banks are now required to reimburse victims where they have been tricked—generally by masquerading as a legitimate business or person—to authorise a payment. Meanwhile in Australia, banks refuse and are not required to refund victims. It's vital for the government to force financial institutions to increase the friction between financial transfers to enable tracking and recovery of funds by victims.

I regularly hear of those who have been scammed in Warringah. They get in contact with my office. They are distressed. They almost always have no way to seek redress or to get their money back. One constituent's son had his house deposit of just over $100,000 scammed by someone impersonating his lawyer. In an era where bank cheques are becoming a thing of the past and so many transactions are done electronically, it's absolutely vital that we increase friction and make financial institutions more responsible so that they take action to limit scams.

I'm glad to say that some northern beaches seniors aren't taking scams lying down; they're fighting back. Too often we think scams are happening to older Australians, who may not be so familiar with electronic means, but they are happening to all age groups—to young people, in particular. Young professionals are getting scammed in relation to funds they simply cannot afford to lose. We had, locally, great coverage in the Manly Observerin the lead-up to last Christmas, showing how Manly Computer Pals ran tutorials for seniors to help them avoid possible scams and raise their own digital literacy. We need to do more of that. We need more information and education to make sure we protect Australians from scams.

I know the government is responding. They have established the National Anti-Scam Centre and there is work to introduce the mandatory codes framework, but consumer groups are calling for the government to go further and make financial institutions liable for their customers' scammed losses, as the financial institutions are ultimately facilitating the money being transferred. They are the ones with visibility on who is receiving the funds. They have the capacity to increase friction and ensure recovery of funds. If they are made liable to reimburse funds, they will be motivated to put greater protections in place for consumers.

Losses to scams are now so great and frequent that the government must act. We are seeing New Zealand and Singapore moving in the direction of the UK by introducing measures for greater liability of financial institutions. The government is moving on mandatory industry codes, and that's welcome. But alongside that and enforceable codes, consumer groups are calling for mandatory reimbursement of consumer losses by financial institutions. As I said, this will incentivise them to do better, to create that friction and better recovery, a fair and simple dispute resolution pathway for consumers and a mechanism for banks to recover the cost of scam losses from other bodies.

Time is of the essence in this sector. In the meantime, I tell constituents that there are basic things they can all do to protect themselves and their loved ones from scams. There are three key steps to remember. Firstly, stop. Don't give money or personal information to anyone if you're unsure. Scammers will create a sense of urgency. Don't rush to act. Take your time and don't give money or personal information. Secondly, think. Ask yourself, 'Could the call or text be fake?' Scammers pretend to be organisations or people you know and trust. All too often for parents, that will be your children. Contact the organisation—using information you rely on and that you source independently through means that you trust—so that you can verify if the call is real or not. If you're not sure, hang up. Thirdly, protect. Act quickly if something feels wrong. Trust your gut. Contact your bank immediately if you have authorised a transfer or if you have lost money in a scam. If you have provided personal information, call IDCARE on 1800595160 to get some protections. It is vitally important that we protect Australians and their hard earned money from the scammers.

Stephen Jones (Whitlam, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the member for Warringah for bringing this matter of public importance to the House today. A passion project of mine since before we formed government has been to ensure that the Commonwealth government do more to keep Australians' information and their money safe.

I see, over there on the crossbench, a number of crossbench members—the member for Goldstein, the member for North Sydney, the member for Indi, the member for Mackellar, the member for Mayo, and all of the crossbench members. I've had a lot of engagement with them on the government's—I missed the member for Curtin. I've had a lot of engagement from crossbench members on this issue, and while I know every member in this place—on all sides—works hard, I don't think there's another member, apart from myself, who has spoken to more Australians on the issue of scams and scam losses and what the Commonwealth government needs to do to help protect Australians. Over the last two years I have probably held around 80-90 forums around the country—all of them well attended. I saw the member for Indi there, and we had a couple of great forums in their electorate a few months ago. Members of the coalition here have had a number of meetings in coalition member seats, including in Michael McCormack's seat a few weeks ago, as well. There's a lot of interest right across the parliament, and nothing I'm about to say takes anything away from that.

It is simply a fact that the Albanese government is the first government to take this matter seriously. The fact of the matter is, before we came to power, the approach of the previous government was simply to dismiss people who had become victims of scams as mugs who had fallen for something. They had failed to take care, they were mugs, and it was their own fault, and if there was an obligation of government it was to whisper quietly, 'Just be careful, will you?' We look at the sophistication of scams and the fact that they have become industrialised over the last five years, and we say that is not good enough. They have moved to—literally—industrial-scale operations being run out of other countries, and Australia is one of the targets because we are a relatively wealthy nation that is well-connected around the world.

Before we came into government, the result of that negligent approach was that scam losses were doubling every year. The year we came into government, scam losses were at $3 billion per annum, and they were set to hit $6 billion at the end of that calendar year. Thankfully, they didn't, and they didn't because we put some measures in place. We funded ASIC to pull down fake investment webpages. We established the telecommunications register to block malicious messages and calls. We're blocking about a million a day. Before you jump into it—I can hear many of you about to say, 'But I'm still getting them,'—phase 2 of our telecommunications register will move from a blacklist to a whitelist of numbers. Unless you're on the whitelist, you won't be able to send out a mass SMS in the name of a trusted brand—more action in that area.

I'm pleased to hear the member for Warringah mention IDCARE—a great community organisation who help people who have been subject to a data breach, or to having their personal information stolen to, to repair their ID. We're funding them—we more than tripled their funding to ensure they can uplift the service that they provide to the Australian community. We stood up the National Anti-Scam Centre, a close to $90 million investment with more to come, to ensure that we have a centre which is the central control of information-sharing, interference, interruption and education throughout the community. That $90 million is actually in the $300 billion worth of 'wasteful spending' that those opposite refer to, so I look forward to a confirmation from members opposite as to whether they will cancel that funding and close it down. We think it's critical. We think it's a critical part of our economic infrastructure, keeping Australians' information and money safe. I am yet to hear a word from the coalition on whether they would maintain such a facility. We think it's critical.

Can I say something about phase 2, which was alluded to by the member for Warringah? We know phase 1 has worked, because, for the first year in close to a decade, scam losses didn't double; in fact, they went backwards. Phase 1, we know, has worked because for the first year in close to a decade scam losses did not double. In fact, they went backwards. We are one of the only countries in the world where that happened, by the way. We are one of the only countries in the world where scam losses went backwards from $3 billion to $2.75 billion. I am not going to shout victory in our time because it is not; $2.75 billion is just way too much.

The heavy lifting that needs to be done in phase 2 of our reforms is critical. I will have a lot more to say in the very near future about new legislation that will be out for consultation in a few days. It will put in a prevention framework. It will put in high-level obligations, create new statutory obligations, on designated businesses and sectors. It will create broad-reaching obligations. It will create legal rights for consumers and powers for regulators and, underneath all of that, there will be additional protections from mandatory industry codes of practice which will include the specific obligations that apply on the banks, on telecommunications companies and on social media platforms.

In the time that I have left, can I say something about the latter? I listened carefully to the member for Warringah, a person who I respect. She comes to these debates in good faith. The first thing to say is a mandatory reimbursement mechanism which is ascribed to what is going on in the United Kingdom has been delayed twice. It is set to come into place in October. It is far from settled policy—okay? There is a voluntary system at the moment. It is far from settled policy. I think there needs to be a reimbursement scheme in Australia and that should be brought forward through phase 2 of our work.

I want to caution anybody in this place to say the only people who should be in the frame are banks. Yes, they should be liable when they do the wrong thing. But frankly, it will take a lot of work to convince me that the Broken Hill credit union membership—less than 10,000—should be the ones on the hook after a member of the Broken Hill credit union pays $1,000 for a golden retriever that does not exist from a scam ad for a puppy on Facebook when they knew nothing about it yet Facebook took advertising revenue—made money—and is making millions out of posting these sorts of scam advertisements. So I say to every member of this place in good faith: yes, there needs to be liability not only for our banks but for our telecommunications companies and social media platforms as well. The business that would have the most to gain through making the banks always pay is Meta. The person who would be arguing most vociferously for making the banks pay is Mark Zuckerberg. I simply say to people in this place: let's not be Zucker's suckers.

This is not a start-up business we are talking about. Meta are making up between $5 billion and $6 billion here every year in Australia. So let's not be Zucker's suckers. Let's ensure we have a robust framework that puts obligations in place on banks, on telecommunications companies, on social media platforms, and let's ensure that we do it in a way that stands up for our sovereignty. It is not too much to ask that if you are running a business in this country, making billions of dollars out of running business in this country, that you obey Australia's laws and you respect the sovereignty of the country in which you operate. You do not have to agree with our laws but you do have to agree with the fact that Australian governments, of whatever flavour, and the Australian parliament have the right to make laws which apply to any business which operates within our jurisdiction. Sure, disagree with our laws but you cannot disagree with the fact that this parliament is sovereign over this country and has a right and an obligation to keep Australians safe.

Zoe Daniel (Goldstein, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We've all had that moment: our phone rings, and the number is unknown to us. Many of us, sensing something isn't quite right, simply ignore the call or block the number. We know it could be a scam and we avoid it. But, for far too many Australians, these scam calls don't end with just a blocked number. For various reasons, whether it's confusion or vulnerability or they're simply caught off guard, they pick up that call or click on that link and engage with the scammer, and the consequences can be devastating.

Scamming has become an international plague, a faceless, borderless threat that is preying on people around the globe. In 2023, a staggering $2.7 billion was stolen from Australians by scammers. That figure represents the hard-earned money of everyday people, money that was supposed to go towards building futures, supporting families and securing retirements. Instead, it's vanished into the hands of criminals.

But, while the financial cost is shocking, the true damage can't be captured by numbers alone. Like my colleagues do in their electorates, in my electorate of Goldstein I hear stories all the time about scams. People recount close calls where they managed to bail out at the last second, narrowly avoiding disaster. But I also hear the heart-wrenching stories where the warnings came too late, and one of those stories weighs heavily on my mind.

It's about an elderly man—a man who's become a friend—a proud immigrant who came to Australia over 50 years ago with almost nothing but hope. Like so many others, he worked hard, built a family and made a life for himself. He's the kind of person who bodies the Australian success story, someone who arrived with very little but, through determination and grit, created a future for his children and his grandchildren. But life changes. After losing his wife and seeing his children move away, this man found himself living alone. In his 70s, he was still strong, capable and determined to manage his own affairs. He'd always handled things on his own, so why would this stage of life be any different? Unfortunately, that's when the scammers found him at his most vulnerable.

One day, he answered one of those calls. It wasn't pushy; it wasn't aggressive. The voice on the other end was young, confident and convincing. They spoke of an exciting investment in cryptocurrency, an opportunity that could yield enormous returns. The caller seemed to understand him. He spoke his language and built trust over several conversations, and eventually, after several reassurances, this man took the plunge and invested. At first it seemed like he'd made a great decision; the returns looked fantastic on paper. But, as we now know, those numbers were fake. When he tried to call in his profits, everything went silent. His money was gone. Hundreds of thousands of dollars was lost—vanished into thin air.

Yet it didn't stop there. Out of shame and embarrassment, he didn't tell anyone. He tried to ignore the scam calls that kept coming, but over time he fell for another one, a romance scam. He trusted someone he met online, someone who told him they had a future together, but that future came with a price: another investment in yet another fraudulent scheme. He was promised a partnership, a shared life of wealth and happiness. Instead, he was robbed again. This man, now around 80 years old, lost almost $1 million. Everything he'd worked for, everything he'd saved for his children and grandchildren, was gone, and today, at almost 80, he contemplates finding a job because the retirement he'd carefully planned for has disappeared.

His story is not unique. There are countless Australians right now who are suffering in silence because they've been scammed and they're too ashamed to admit it. This is why we must act. We can no longer afford to let this epidemic continue unchecked. Australia needs robust legislation that puts the onus on banks, financial institutions and social media platforms to strengthen their antiscam technology and safeguard people's finances, and we need nationwide education.

The story I shared with you today is a tragedy, but it doesn't have to continue to be repeated. We can make a difference. We can protect our citizens from these criminals and ensure that future generations do not have to suffer this awful fate.

Alicia Payne (Canberra, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise to speak on this really important matter of public importance brought by the member for Warringah. It's something that is pressing for all Australians, and I'm proud of the action that our government, led by Assistant Treasurer, have taken to address scams and to stop this very destructive trend in our society. I was recently proud to host an antiscams forum with the Assistant Treasurer here in my electorate of Canberra. It was good to hear him talk about all the scam forums he's held all around the country. I do believe he said mine was the biggest—it doesn't really matter, but over 300 people attended this forum, which shows the level of concern in the community about scams. We've all got them; we've all had the text messages, the calls and the emails. It was a great opportunity to have the minister come and speak with my community about the prevalence of scams, give them advice around how they can protect themselves and tell them about what the government is doing to ensure that fewer Australians are being impacted by scams every day.

The work this government has done to date has been transformative in this issue. In 2022 scammers stole $3.1 billion from Australians. In 2023 the government reduced that figure to $2.7 billion. Obviously, this number is still far too high, and there is more work to be done, but this trend is going in the right direction. Last year the government established the National Anti-Scam Centre to provide cross-sector engagement. The centre brings together industry participants from finance, telecommunications and digital platforms, and these participants are working together with government to expand policies and initiatives which drive down scam activity. Since coming to office the government has invested over $154 million in the fight against scammers. I was really concerned to hear the Assistant Treasurer say just now in his speech that the coalition are including some of this in their wasteful spending, so it will be interesting to see if they will commit to continuing this critically important work to protect Australians. Soon we'll be legislating mandatory industry codes to ensure that the banks, the telcos and the social media platforms are doing everything they can to address this issue. These codes will ensure that, if they are breached, the company responsible for the breach will be responsible for compensating the victim.

In 2023 an ASIC report into scam prevention, detection and response by the four major banks found that the overall approach to scam strategy and governance was highly variable and, overall, less mature than expected. The report found they had inconsistent and narrow approaches to determining liability across their banks. It also found that victims are often not well supported and that their ability to detect and stop scam payments had significant gaps.

A couple of weeks ago, as a member of the House economics committee, I had the opportunity to question the CEOs of the big 4 banks, and I focused my questions on scams and the responses of the banks to the significant losses of their customers, often as a result of their own institution's failings. Particularly, I wanted to raise the issue of two of my constituents who lost enormous sums of money to very sophisticated scams. One of these constituents lost around $1.6 million and the other lost over $5 million. In both cases, my constituents told me about the response of their bank, which was clearly completely inadequate, lacking the urgency and the empathy that one would expect for such a life-changing loss of money and devastating crime that has happened against these people. In one of the cases, Westpac informed the individual that they had been scammed and provided them with ways to protect themselves in the future. That is clearly a terrible response to someone who lost over $5 million. I believe that they deserve more from their bank, and I raised this and am pleased to say that Westpac have offered to contact both of those constituents individually.

There is more we can do in this space. While the banks have a really important role to play, as the Assistant Treasurer has said, social media platforms also have a really important responsibility in this. The fact that they can take advertising money from scammers who are taking advantage of Australians is not the banks' fault. That is a responsibility that those social media platforms should take seriously. They really should take their role in these terrible crimes seriously and address that.

Helen Haines (Indi, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It feels like every day we hear another story of an Australian whose life has been upended by scammers—by criminals, because that's what they are. They aren't opportunists; they're organised criminal groups that make use of any and all technologies to steal money from Australians at every age, from every demographic. It is despicable stuff.

We are all vulnerable to scams. Last year Australians lost more than $2.7 billion to scams, and that's just the scams that are reported, with many more going unreported. As we have heard in this chamber today, many people are embarrassed to report them. My office hears from so many people who have lost money to scams, many amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Take the story of Nola and Ray Holden, a couple living in Bonegilla in my electorate, who were victims of a horrendous scam in April this year. After scammers accessed the Holdens' bank details, they made 85 transactions of $990 each to foreign bank accounts over the next 24 hours. That added up to $120,000 stolen from their account in just one day. As the Holdens' family doctor has told me—he is assisting the Holdens in this matter—'at no point in time did Bendigo Bank alert the Holdens or put a freeze on their bank accounts.' Even though the scam put Ray and Nola's account tens of thousands of dollars into overdraft, the bank did nothing. What I find particularly shocking is that the bank, even after being alerted to the scam, began charging the Holdens $700 per month in interest because of the overdraft debts. While the bank has now paused interest payments after intervention from the Australian Financial Complaints Authority, the Holdens tell me that the bank is now seeking to recover the funds from their estate when they die or sell the farm they have lived on for decades. That's almost as despicable as the scam itself.

Thinking of the Holdens' story, it's hard to quantify the impacts beyond the financial loss. There are the mental impacts and the sense of shame that many victims of scams feel. Many experience ongoing trauma and a loss of trust that can impact many areas of their lives. Like so many other MPs in this place, I have met many families like the Holdens and I know that it could can happen to any one of us. So we must do more. This government must not be complacent, because the scammers certainly won't be.

Fortunately, when I welcomed the Assistant Treasurer to Myrtleford and Benalla earlier this year, I sensed that he is well aware of the scale of this challenge. I commend the government for much of its work in this space. The creation of the National Anti-Scam Centre has made a difference. The creation of the SMS Sender ID Registry should help every Australian who is constantly receiving scam text messages purporting to be from anyone from the ATO, Australia Post or other trusted organisations.

As an independent member of this place it's my job to keep pushing the government to keep going, to do everything it can in the fight against scams. That's why it's so essential that the government put in place a mandatory scams code before the next election. The proposed framework will create minimum, consistent obligations for businesses to prevent, detect, disrupt and respond to scams. The Holdens wouldn't have lost more than $100,000 if their bank had had better processes in place, and with no mandatory code there's no incentive to protect customers and no consequences when they fail to do so. I support a mandatory code, because this can't be a battle for individuals alone. Big businesses like the banks and tech giants must pull their weight in the fight against scams. If they won't come to the table then I support the government bringing them to the table and using their influence and heft to stop more scams at the source.

The Assistant Treasurer has committed to introducing this legislation before the end of the year, and I intend to hold the government to that timeline, because the government must keep moving. The fight against scams is not done. You do not make one change and expect it to be fixed. Scammers will continue to adapt. They will shift and change with technology and exploit the vulnerabilities of our people. The explosion of freely available generative AI is a new frontier and shows us that we must be vigilant. It is a role for all of us in this place to ensure that the Commonwealth government fights to protect Australians from the scourge of scams.

Jerome Laxale (Bennelong, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'd like to thank the member for Warringah for bringing this motion to parliament. Scams and scam prevention is something I've personally taken a keen interest in since coming to this place and something I have raised not only in this chamber but a number of times in my role on the House Economics Committee. I'd like to thank the member for Indi for her contribution as well. I think everyone in this place wants to push the government to come up with solutions here, and thankfully we have. This is an area that needs immediate and ongoing attention. As members of the House Economics Committee, with my good friend the member for Hawke, we are working very closely with the Assistant Treasurer to make sure that that happens, because, when we came to office, Australians were losing over $3 billion a year to scams. Online, text message, phone and in-person scams were rampant, and losses doubled each year between 2019 and 2022.

For too long, scams were put into the too-hard basket by the Liberals and Nationals. Under the previous government, Australians were abandoned in the face of this escalating threat. As they kept wages down, they allowed scams to skyrocket—wages down, scams up. We're a government that takes scamming and being scammed seriously. We've made critical investments in the fight against scammers, and the results are there for everyone to see.

I've had the opportunity to engage with the big four banks on this issue, and, in 2023, I asked them directly about what they were doing to combat scams. At that time, it was clear that the individual banks were taking individual action, but the response across the sector was inconsistent. Each bank had its own approach—some were doing okay, while others were not—and the overall data showed that these efforts were falling well short of what was needed.

In our most recent hearings, which the member for Canberra just referred to, it was pleasing to see a much more coordinated and focused approach from them. The banks know that this government has them on the hook, and they're responding. They're now working closely with the National Anti-Scam Centre, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and the Australian Securities and Investments Commission to form a united front against scammers. They've strengthened controls around fund transfers, and they're implementing new technologies to detect suspicious transactions in real time. They should have done that sooner, but it took a coordinated approach from this government to make them do it.

We need this coordinated sectorwide effort to protect consumers, and that's why we established the National Anti-Scam Centre. It started in July last year, and we've seen a remarkable turnaround in scam losses. For the first time since 2016, annual scam losses declined in 2023. This is proof that our scam strategy is working, but it also reminds us that the work is far from over.

This matter of public importance specifically goes to electronic funds transfer, but we need to note that there are more than just banks at play in the scam ecosystem: telecommunications providers and, of course, our good friends in the social media platforms. The government has already taken decisive action in telecommunications with the SMS Sender ID Registry so that scammers can't spoof the banks, the ATO, LinkedIn or myGov in their text messages headers. This is simple but effective, and it took a Labor government to do it.

But, for digital and social media platforms, progress hasn't been so great to date. These platforms facilitate communication, and they provide scammers with almost unlimited potential to reach and contact unsuspecting Australians. Just as we hold the banks and the telecommunications providers to account, we must ensure that digital social media platforms play their part in protecting consumers. How are we going to do that?

We just heard from the Assistant Treasurer that the government will introduce new industry codes designed to hold these businesses—all of them—equally accountable for their role in preventing, detecting and responding to scams. They will cover banks, telcos and digital social media platforms as part of the coordinated approach that we need. Each sector will be required to have systems in place to detect, disrupt and prevent scams, and, importantly, if they fail to meet their obligations, they will be held accountable. If these companies don't comply with the new codes, they'll be liable to compensate victims.

For too long, the burden of scams has fallen upon the individual, with Australians losing their hard-earned money. We're a government determined to address it.

Kylea Tink (North Sydney, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Not that long ago, the idea of a con artist or a scam was something many could claim to see coming a mile away. It was the dodgy guy who had a bridge to sell you in Sydney, or it was the kerbside charlatan who would encourage innocent pedestrians to 'just watch the shell', but, in 2024, scams are increasingly sophisticated and pervasive. I thank the member for Warringah for raising this important matter of public importance.

The constantly evolving nature of modern scammers is a key issue for all of us, with over 160,000 scams costing hundreds of millions of dollars already reported to Scamwatch this year alone. Concerningly, over 95 per cent of people who are scammed don't get any money back, and this is just a measure of those who report them, with the true number of individuals scammed likely to be much higher. Everyone I know has received a scam phone call, email or text message. And as everyday aspects of our lives are increasingly moved online, whether that's shopping, banking or socialising, it has been too easy for scammers to get at us.

My office literally hears from hundreds of people who have fallen victim to incredibly sophisticated scams every month, with one person recently contacting me because her elderly parents had lost $250,000 to an investment scam that was presented as an opportunity with two well-known financial institutions. Once discovered, neither financial institution accepted any responsibility, and the money was gone. Another person recently reported signing up to a fake dating site with a recurring monthly charge, and, shockingly, in this case the bank again refused to help recover the payments, because they argued the customer had given his details over freely. In almost all cases, the frustrating reality is people who are scammed are not clear on who they should contact or how, and overwhelmingly they are left feeling embarrassed and helpless.

The data tells us scams disproportionately impact older and vulnerable Australians, and increasingly people are looking to the government to ensure adequate protections are legislated and enforced. As with any threat, disruption, detection and deterrence are fundamental, and key to those are awareness and education. In my electorate of North Sydney, with the help of Scamwatch, we've been hosting a series of community seminars designed to teach people how to recognise and respond to scams. Over two sessions to date, one of which was translated into Mandarin, attendees have been encouraged to stop, think and protect to ensure they do not fall foul of these fraudsters. But, as I've participated in these sessions, I've developed a belief that our government should be doing more to spread that education, be that via a mass public education campaign or partnering with the commercial sector to ensure widespread education is on the go or working with schools and other care environments to ensure people are alert but not alarmed. So I take this opportunity to call on the government today to invest in that education.

At the same time, the truth is better detection of scams requires better information sharing. I note the whole-of-ecosystem approach was core to the government's recently proposed scams code framework. But, while we're encouraged to delete and report scam when we receive it, as a nation we need to do better to enable that data to be shared. While banks have made some inroads, and notwithstanding the work of the National Anti-Scam Centre and the Fusion Cell taskforce, information on the latest scams just doesn't get shared widely enough.

As more and more services push consumers to transact entirely online, surely those services have a responsibility to foot the bill when scammers successfully hack their processes. I, again, take this opportunity to call on the government to establish a national scam compensation fund that can be a source of recompense when innocent individuals are scammed. We need to respond by ensuring risks are borne by those most able to mitigate scams' harm. For this reason, I believe the fund could be created by applying a levy across all institutions, whether it be banks, telcos, social media channels, that they need to input in, perhaps one specifically calculated based on the number of customer reports of being defrauded via them. These organisations can and should do more of the heavy lifting here, particularly when ASIC recently has reported a disturbing history of failing to act.

The government has announced some welcome initiatives including the SMS registry and the proposed scams code framework, and early signs are that, despite the staggering absolute numbers, losses from scams are abating. But we can and should do more to bring regulators, industry and consumers together to continue this fight, as it's ultimately bigger than any one person or any one entity.

Anne Stanley (Werriwa, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Unfortunately, every Australian has either been the victim of a scam or knows someone who has. In all their iterations—SMS, emails, phone calls, door knockers and the like—scams are everywhere. And they cover every aspect of life—romance, investment, false billing, employment, classifieds and threats, just to name some. I acknowledge the member for Warringah for the opportunity to bring this matter not only to the parliament's attention but also to the public's attention. The Albanese Labor government knows that every successful scam causes distress, both financial and emotional. Last year, losses from scams were $2.74 billion. We all know this, but it only gets driven home when we experience it personally.

Earlier this year, I learnt I was scammed. The exact mechanism by which I was scammed is still a bit of a mystery, which, of course, in itself is worrying, but thankfully I was alerted almost immediately because I'd opted into notifications from my bank about transactions. I was able to stop the transaction, and, after investigation, the money was returned by my bank. But many others are not so lucky, and the papers and the media regularly retell stories from individuals and businesses who have been victims. In fact, just in this debate, we've heard some very serious concerns about what has happened.

A few months ago, I was grateful for a visit to my electorate by the Assistant Treasurer and Minister for Financial Services. He led a well-attended and extremely interesting scams forum. Everyone who attended the forum left better equipped to identify a scam and, if caught, to take the appropriate action. The take-home message for me from the minister still resonates—if it's too good to be true, it probably is. This is especially relevant to the investment scams that people find themselves experiencing. In 2023, Australians made more than 600,000 scam reports and lost upwards of $2.7 billion. In fact, in July 2024 alone, the National Anti-Scam Centre received reports of over 21,000 scams, with just over $20 million lost, and those are appalling statistics.

The Albanese government takes scams seriously. In the most recent budget, the Assistant Treasurer and Minister for Financial Services delivered an additional $67.5 million as part of the government's second tranche of reforms to crack down on scammers. This is good news for all Australians and, hopefully, bad news for the scammers, but these scammers are clever and are always looking to be one step ahead.

An excellent resource supported by the Albanese government is Scamwatch. On its website, there is sage advice regarding investment scams, which are particularly relevant to the matter before us today. Investment scams come in a variety of forms: Ponzi schemes, cryptoscams, impostor bond scams and super scams. On Scamwatch's website, I am especially drawn to the advice regarding online contact—that is, interacting online with a romantic interest or someone that you've never met in person who starts talking to you about investing. That is a really strong signal to be very, very careful. The other advice provided, which is especially important, is about scams which involve the pressure to make an investment decision now or you'll miss out on the opportunity of a lifetime. We all know this isn't true, but, in the flurry of the moment, it can sometimes be easy to be swept up.

Scamwatch, the National Anti-Scam Centre, Moneysmart, Scams Awareness Week and the Australian Cyber Security Centre all demonstrate this government's commitment to addressing this important area of public policy, with an investment of $144 million already made to aid in the fight. This has resulted in losses from scams declining in 2023 for the first time since 2016. The second phase of our government's response will see legislation enacting code frameworks and mandatory industry codes. In his address in July this year, the Assistant Treasurer clearly stated that banks and financial institutions need to do better, including strengthening their controls around bank transfers.

Protecting Australians from scams is a priority for this government, and I've seen firsthand how seriously the Assistant Treasurer deals with this. Of course, there's always more to do, but we are getting on with the job to do the best we can as soon as we can.

Kate Chaney (Curtin, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Australian consumers and businesses face a growing risk from scams. Since being elected, I've had lots of reports from constituents of all demographics who have fallen victim to a range of scams. According to the National Anti-Scam Centre, there were 600,000 reports of scams last year and losses of $2.7 billion, and that's just the ones that were reported. We know that many people don't report scams. They feel like they shouldn't have been fooled, or they don't think there's any point in reporting it, or they don't even know how to report it.

The challenge with scams is that they're often perpetrated by foreign criminals, out of reach of Australian law enforcement, so if we can't get them we need better controls in place to regulate the ways they reach Australia through three access points: banks, telecommunications companies and digital platforms. Now, while some sectors like the telecommunications sector have industry codes to reduce scams, other sectors in the scams ecosystem have no specific forcible antiscam requirements.

The ACCC has identified that digital platforms do not take sufficient and consistent steps to protect consumers from scams, and ASIC has found that the overall approach to scams in Australia's major banks is variable and less mature than expected, with gaps and inconsistencies in scam detection, response and victim support. Banks, telecommunications companies and digital platforms must be incentivised to take all reasonable steps to prevent scammers from using their channels to target Australians. Getting this right requires a good understanding of what these companies can do and flexibility to cover new types of scams.

Many of the steps that could be taken will add friction to our online transactions, making it a little bit more challenging to get some things done. These could include delays, or requirements to provide identity or confirm instructions. But there are also things that the sectors can do behind the scenes that would make a big difference. Liability for scams must be linked to whether or not banks, telecommunications companies and digital platforms are taking all reasonable steps, and remedies must be easy to navigate for scams victims so that they don't fall between the cracks of the complicated ecosystem of banks, telecommunications companies and digital platforms.

I've been advocating for greater awareness and protection through speeches, meetings and events. I spoke in parliament last year about some stories of very sophisticated scams that had come through my office. I told Lisa's story. She lost $750,000 in a scam related to the setting up of an account with ING Bank. I told John's story. He's an experienced share trader who lost $2.7 million in a sophisticated international scam by worldwide brokers. I told Tim's story. His mother lost $800,000 in a scam that resulted in a capital gains tax liability, despite her having been scammed out of the assets. While waiting for stronger legislative protections, we held a Curtin scams awareness workshop with the ACCC to try to arm people against scams. Again, I heard so many stories from people about their experiences, and we gave them some tips for spotting scams.

As well as meeting with affected constituents and experts like Choice and the consumer law action network, I met with the Assistant Treasurer last year to advocate for tighter banking regulations and enforceable industry codes of conduct, with appropriate pathways to compensation. The Assistant Treasurer assured me that codes of conduct were being developed and that legislation would be passed very soon to make them mandatory. We hope that happens soon. It hasn't happened yet. The proposed scams code framework has not been legislated, and as far as I know the codes have not been finalised.

In February, I co-launched the Parliamentary Friends of Scams Protection with the member for Kooyong and Senator Walsh to draw parliament's attention to the urgency of this issue. While we wait, reports of those affected by scams keep coming in to my office. As a reminder that we're still waiting, like many Australians I get a scam text message or a call almost every day telling me that my package has arrived, that my account will be cancelled unless I update my credit card or that I haven't paid my toll fee.

This problem is not going away. With time running out in this term of parliament I urge the government to legislate the mandatory codes of conduct for banks, telecommunications companies and digital platforms as soon as possible, with appropriate obligations on those in the scams ecosystem and clear remedies if those obligations are not met. We need to protect Australians from scams as soon as possible.

Carina Garland (Chisholm, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Scams are a massive issue in my community, and I think all of us on this side of the House agree with the member for Warringah that protecting consumers from scams is a must-have, core economic policy. Our government have been doing an enormous amount of work to make sure that we do what we can to stop scammers from taking advantage of people in our communities.

As a local member, in my electorate of Chisholm I've run many, many scam forums with hundreds and hundreds of people in attendance. In fact, every single time we run a scams forum we are oversubscribed almost as soon as we advertise the event, such is the interest in my community from my constituents. In every newsletter that I put out to constituents I advertise the fact that my office is very willing and able to send out The little black book of scams, which is a wonderful resource from the ACCC. It's available in a range of different languages, and we have sent out thousands of these in the time since I was elected.

I will take the opportunity here to remind people of the steps that they can take to ensure they do not fall victim to a scam. I advise people to stop: if someone calls, someone texts or someone emails, don't feel obliged to respond; you should delete or hang up—don't engage and don't click the link. I advise people to check: verify that the person who is contacting you, whether they pretend to be from a bank or from another entity, is who they say they are. Independently verify this. And I advise people to report: if you think you've been victim to a scammer, please go through your bank and also make a report through Scamwatch. I do this all the time when I am contacted by scammers, which unfortunately does happen frequently.

We know that behind every single dollar stolen by a criminal scammer is a story of financial and emotional distress, a very human story and a story of injustice. We have been prioritising action on scams since we came to government. When those opposite left office, Australians were losing over $3 billion a year to scams, and it looked like it would, over time, get higher had they remained in office. Those opposite had backward priorities, keeping wages down as a deliberate design feature of their economic strategy and abandoning consumers in the face of a growing global threat from scams—so wages were down, and scams were up. When we were elected, we made it a priority to not only grow wages, which of course is very important; support wage increases for our most vulnerable; and deliver a tax cut for every Australian taxpayer. We're also protecting the hard-earned money of all of our constituents in our communities from the threat of scammers.

We've invested over $154 million in the fight against scammers. In the first phase of our fight, we established the really important National Anti-Scam Centre, a world-leading asset of consumer protection infrastructure, bringing together the expertise and capability of government agencies, law enforcement and the private sector. We're using data and information-sharing capabilities to detect scams and prevent them reaching potential victims. I'm really pleased to say that this strategy is working. Since we established the National Anti-Scam Centre, scam losses have been reducing. Annual scam losses declined in 2023 for the first time since 2016. The second phase of our response will involve legislating a scams code framework and new mandatory industry codes. Our key focus is on preventing criminals ever reaching their targets, not waiting for scams to occur in the first place. We're going to be working with a range of sectors including the banking sector and telecommunications sectors. We need to make sure this is a whole-of-government approach.

We take the issue of scams and scammers in our community very seriously, just as the people in our community do. This is a very legitimate and a very significant worry for so many of the people that we represent in this place. I'm really pleased to be part of a government that is taking action to bring scams down and protect our communities.

Sophie Scamps (Mackellar, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'd also like to thank the member for Warringah for introducing this topic for debate because it truly is a matter of public importance. Scams are truly heinous crimes that cost our community in so many ways. They eat away at our trust in institutions and can not only lead to financial devastation but also seriously harm the mental health of victims. I think every member in this chamber would have experienced the anguish of a relative or friend who has been a victim of a scam. Only just a couple of weeks ago, I received communication from a very distressed friend whose aunt, a single woman on the pension with stage 4 cancer, was scammed out of her entire life savings. The bank did not respond, of course, until that story reached the media. It is a roller-coaster of emotions, not just for the victim but for their family—shock and shame and then perhaps disgust that fellow humans could do such a cruel thing, particularly if the victim is older or vulnerable. Then it is followed by fear: How much has been lost? Does the scammer still have control of my identity? How can I be safe again? Then comes the frustration of trying to get redress. The path to recovery is long and difficult. Consumers report difficulties even contacting their bank to report the scam and significant waits for the bank's fraud investigation outcome.

Currently, according to the Community Action Law Centre, Australia is being heavily targeted by scammers as we have seen as easy prey, as we just don't have sufficient measures in place to protect our citizens. The CEO of the Consumer Action Law Centre, Stephanie Tonkin, also said:

Australia's banks are failing, first for allowing scams to take place, and then failing their customers who seek financial redress causing them to turn to AFCA for help.

Currently, Australia's major banks only reimburse between two to five per cent of their customers' scam losses.

The federal government has promised to implement tough industry scam codes for the past 18 months. Scams cost Australians a total of $2.7 billion in 2023. That is why I am pleased to hear this week that the Assistant Treasurer will soon bring forward a second tranche of legislation to address the rapid rise of scams in this country, including mandatory codes of conduct for telcos, banks and social media platforms and that there will be significant fines of up to $50 million for these groups if they fail to act on fraudulent schemes that fleece their customers. That is a good start; however, I'm still concerned that the proposals will not go far enough in addressing liability for scam losses.

Any solution to tackle the scourge of scams must be consumer-centric. It must ensure that it works in their interests and does not unfairly burden them with the cost of scams. Liability for reimbursement must rest with industry. Australians shouldn't be wearing the losses. It is the banks and the financial institutions that have the tools to protect the Australians from the scams. For example, some major banks have introduced functionality which checks the account details against the name before a transfer is executed. This should be compulsory for all financial institutions.

The best way to prevent and disrupt scams is through incentivising real investment in prevention systems and through ensuring consumers can access redress where industry has failed to protect them. Second, consumers need a simplified single pathway for redress through their bank or their financial institution where their money was stolen from. It should not be left to the consumer to navigate the bank's internal systems and sometimes multiple banks to try and retrieve their hard-earned money. Where this pathway fails there needs to be a single door for consumers to access external dispute resolution.

It is also important that we have strong codes that apply to telcos and social media platforms so that they rise to meet their responsibilities. Scammers use their services and platforms to commit their crimes. It is intolerable that, within an hour of placing an ad on Facebook Marketplace or a car site, a person is bombarded with scammers trying to trick them into transferring money. (Time expired)

Sharon Claydon (Newcastle, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The discussion has now concluded.