Jan McLucas (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Aged Care, Disabilities and Carers) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Ageing, Senator Santoro. Is the minister aware that two other facilities operated by the provider at Elizabeth House Private Nursing Home also failed to meet care standards in visits by the agency this year, including Plumpton Villa, which failed 22 out of 44 care standards? Didn’t the report on Plumpton Villa find that there were insufficient qualified staff and that at times the assessment team itself was unable to locate any staff? Over the three days of the visit, didn’t the assessment team hear a resident moaning in pain and observe a high number of skin tears amongst residents? Does the minister recall defending his decision not to impose a sanction on this facility because ‘it was getting its act together’? Can the minister explain why frail residents suffering substandard care had to wait while the provider was given time to get its act together?

Santo Santoro (Queensland, Liberal Party, Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is one thing that I will not allow to happen in this chamber as far as I am concerned: I will not be verballed. If people doubt what I am about to repeat, they should read the Hansard. Senator McLucas asked me why I failed to impose sanctions. Senator McLucas, if she in any way wishes to be treated as a serious shadow minister for ageing, would understand and would be able to clearly state to this place that I do not impose sanctions. It is not within the province of the minister’s ability or jurisdictional capacity to impose sanctions on an aged-care facility. I will take Senator McLucas through Ageing 101. Once an inspection is undertaken—

Jan McLucas (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Aged Care, Disabilities and Carers) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. I quote from the Age of 29 August, where Senator Santoro says:

The accreditation agency is satisfied that these homes are getting their act together.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is not a point of order; that is reading from a quote. I call the minister.

Santo Santoro (Queensland, Liberal Party, Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I wish to thank Senator McLucas for quoting, although Mr President is quite correct in his ruling that it is not a relevant point of order. That quote that she has just read from has in no way substantiated the major point in her question that I refused to impose a sanction. Ageing 101 should tell Senator McLucas, if she cares to read the textbook, that in fact it is the accreditation agency that conducts the inspections and then, always with the best interests of the people who are aged and frail within a facility, will make the decision.

So what Senator McLucas is again doing is seeking to verbal me and verbal the government and, through you, Mr President, seeking to again scare the living daylights out of the elderly, aged and frail within our facilities. She is trying to create an impression that the aged-care sector, which every night looks after over 160,000 aged and frail Australians, is somehow in a crisis. I have always said in this place and outside that no system is perfect.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. It goes to relevance. Senator McLucas asked a serious question about care standards at Plumpton Villa and the decision by the department, supported by the minister, not to impose a sanction.

Government Senators:

Government senators interjecting—

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think when you check the Hansard you will find that is right, but in any event I would ask you, Mr President, to draw the minister’s attention to the question. Another three minutes of abuse of Senator McLucas is not dealing seriously with the question. I would ask you to pull him into order to address the questions asked of him.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On many times I have said this. The minister has two minutes left to answer his question. He was being relevant, I believe, and I would ask him to continue and return to the question.

Santo Santoro (Queensland, Liberal Party, Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If Senator Evans does not want me to tell the truth to the Senate, he is failing to understand that it is my intention to always do so. What I am saying—

Michael Forshaw (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is a classic verbal!

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Forshaw, come to order!

Santo Santoro (Queensland, Liberal Party, Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Just keep on asking me the questions and I will just tell you how ageing in Australia operates. Through you, Mr President, I invite senators opposite to keep on asking me the questions, because this government is proud of its record within aged care in Australia. As I suggested to Senator McLucas in answer to her previous question, if it were not for the Howard government, there would not have been a compliance commission and there would not have an accreditation agency. Funding for the aged-care sector would not be at a record level of just under $8 billion. What does this government have to do in terms of looking after the interests of aged and frail Australians to just get one modicum of recognition from Senator McLucas? Just one modicum of recognition—

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Housing and Urban Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I have a point of order on the question of relevance. The minister was asked a direct question about the failure of this nursing home in 22 of the 44 care standards. He has failed to address the question which went to him as to why he has not taken action.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have reminded the minister of the question, but there are continued points of order. It does not help a minister or anybody else to answer a question if they are continually being interrupted.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. I want to query with you what that ruling means. If you are suggesting—

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was not ruling at all.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You made a criticism of people taking legitimate points of order, and I raise concern about that because we have legitimate—

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have ruled previously on this and I have asked the minister to return to the question. What more can I do?

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am raising with you a separate point of order, which is the critique you made about people raising legitimate points of order. We have the ability to do that. It is your role to rule on them. But it is not unreasonable for senators to raise the question of relevance when the minister has made no attempt in four minutes to actually address the question. I am concerned by the suggestion by you that we somehow should restrict our capacity to raise points of order.

Santo Santoro (Queensland, Liberal Party, Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The opposition obviously do whatever they can to gag me because they do not like the answer—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Santo Santoro (Queensland, Liberal Party, Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You will do whatever you can to interrupt my flow, to interrupt the outpouring of truth. As I said through you, Mr President, the whole lot of them are the epitome of an outrage. No wonder they have so little credibility in the aged-care sector of this country.

Jan McLucas (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Aged Care, Disabilities and Carers) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. Can the minister confirm that many of the problems identified at Plumpton Villa were clearly long running, some dating back to when the facility was accredited in September 2005? Why has this facility been given a further eight months to get its act together with no threat of any sanction in the meantime? Should residents in this facility have to wait that long to get the quality care they deserve?

Santo Santoro (Queensland, Liberal Party, Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What I can guarantee Senator McLucas and the Senate—I can guarantee it—is that the residents of that facility today are receiving the top quality care that they deserve. Senator McLucas’s question is again phrased along the lines of ‘how long do they have to wait?’ I give the Senate today the guarantee that all residents in that community are receiving top-quality care. If Senator McLucas has any evidence that today—I stress today—the residents of that facility are not receiving the top-quality care that they so richly deserve, Senator McLucas should table it. She again has been hoist with her own petard. She should come into this place and table the evidence— (Time expired)