Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Senator Bob Carr) to a question without notice asked by Senator Fierravanti-Wells today relating to corruption and foreign bribery.

In doing that, I note that Senator Carr was asked yesterday and today to deny that the state government he led was corrupt and that it took all of six questions for Senator Carr to get around to actually saying that the government he led in New South Wales was not corrupt. That in itself raises some questions, as do Senator Carr's very short, curt and, if I might say, embarrassed answers to questions raised of him today. He took the coward's way out in the first two questions simply by saying that they were not relevant to him.

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You are a grub.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Why—do you disagree, Senator Sterle, with my description of the response to—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I rise on a point of order. Senator Sterle should be required to withdraw that unparliamentary interjection to Senator Macdonald.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Brandis. I was about to ask Senator Macdonald if he would withdraw his remark about Senator Carr and Senator Sterle if he would withdraw his remark about Senator Macdonald.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am not quite sure what remark it was, but I withdraw whatever it was that was offensive.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Macdonald. Senator Sterle, would you do the same thing.

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I am honoured to withdraw that remark.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I return to the point I was making. Senator Carr's answers today showed lack of courage in any response to the questions asked of him. He took the easy way out of saying they were not related to him when, quite clearly, the question was how Senator Carr can lecture other countries about lack of corruption when it is suggested that he presided over a state government which is now being demonstrated to have been very, very corrupt.

I might take this opportunity while I have the floor on this issue to remind people who might be listening that while my name is Ian Macdonald and while I was some years ago a minister in the federal government, I am not the minister Ian Macdonald currently being referred to in the ICAC inquiry. Some of the allegations coming out in the ICAC inquiry—and I acknowledge that so far no-one has been convicted of anything—are such that I think the most uneducated observer would have to be concerned at the relationship between my namesake Mr Ian Macdonald, then the minister for mines, and Mr Eddie Obeid, whose family ended up with quite lucrative pieces of land following some decisions by my namesake Mr Macdonald on coal leases.

Why the question was asked of Senator Carr today was that the people who are featuring prominently in the ICAC inquiry were all ministers who were there when Senator Carr was the Premier of that state and the leader of the Labor Party. It was Senator Carr who promoted people like Mr Obeid and my namesake Mr Macdonald. I have to say that I met my namesake Ian Macdonald once or twice and he seemed to me to be quite a nice guy. I have to say also that I thought that about Bob Collins when he was a senator in this place and I thought that about Mr Gordon Nuttall, who I had a couple of dealings with when we were both ministers, I federally and he in the Queensland government.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You're obviously not a good judge of character!

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, you are quite right: I am not a good judge of character because I was quite easily fooled. Clearly, Senator Carr is also not a very good judge of character because, Senator Di Natale, Senator Bob Carr promoted these people in his government and put them in positions where the sorts of things that we read about in the paper at the present time were allowed to happen. So the question that is raised is: how can Senator Carr go round lecturing Third World countries about corruption and decency in government when those that he lectures only have to look back and see the type of government that he led?

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I would like to contribute to the debate, but before I do I want to say that it is highly contentious for Senator Macdonald to throw those aspersions across at Foreign Minister Carr, who had a fantastic record as the leader of a very successful government in New South Wales.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pity it was corrupt—more corrupt than the Rum Corps, according to ICAC.

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is very easy for mischievous senators to cast aspersions upon a great leader and, not only that, a very successful foreign minister.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So none of this happened under Carr?

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left!

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I wonder if Senator Macdonald and those over on that side would be brave enough to throw those accusations at business leaders. There are some fantastic and successful business leaders who, under their regimes, run very successful companies. But if there is a change of personnel at the top and something is not right or is illegal in that business, do you go back and blame the previous general manager or the previous CEO? It is absolutely ridiculous.

I take offence when Senator Macdonald, who always goes the low road, revels in mud. Senator Macdonald loves to throw aspersions across the chamber at people's reputations, but he should be very careful because I remember the formative years of the Howard government when a number of ministers were removed. I do not know if you were here at the time, Senator Macdonald. I remember that when I came in you were a minister, but you did not last long—you got thrown out on your ear. That is another story, but I am happy to talk about that. It was quite hilarious, actually: the removal of Senator Macdonald with some of the incompetents on that side of the chamber. He was the only one that copped the axe between the eyes. But, Mr Deputy President, there is absolutely no credibility in throwing that. I think Senator Carr has the right to stand on his merits.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was a minister for nine years; you'll be a minister for no years.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left!

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is pretty brave to say things in here, Senator Macdonald. Take 30 steps out there and make the same accusations.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

To the chair, Senator Sterle!

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I am happy to take 30 steps out there and tell everyone how incompetent Senator Macdonald was as a minister when we had the issue of the Indonesian fishing expeditions and the trochus shell.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I raise a point of order. I am well aware of the latitude you allow in these debates, but might I point out to you that the motion moved by Senator Macdonald was that the Senate take note of the answer given by Senator Bob Carr to the question asked of him by Senator Fierravanti-Wells. A personal attack on Senator Ian Macdonald's very distinguished record of public service does not bear in any way upon the motion before the chair.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Brandis. Senator Sterle has been referring to the motion and he had returned to the subject at hand. I do draw his attention to the nature of the motion. Senator Sterle, you have the call.

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr Deputy President. The Australian government has been very active in a number of regional and international forums and initiatives addressing corruption. With your indulgence, Mr Deputy President, I will name a couple of the initiatives and forums that the government is heavily involved in in our region: the United Nations Convention against Corruption, ratified by Australia on 7 December 2005, and the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime, ratified by Australia on 27 May 2004. Foreign Minister Carr is very active in implementing these forums and initiatives. He makes a fantastic contribution and is a tremendous representative for the Australian people. Another one is the OECD Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions.

No-one in this chamber—from this side especially—would ever, ever endorse or condone corruption. There is absolutely no argument. We have a number of initiatives. I remember in Western Australia we—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What?

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What about the HSU? What about Craig Thomson?

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left! Senator Sterle, you have the call.

Glenn Sterle (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr Deputy President. Under the leadership of the Gallop government, the Corruption and Crime Commission was introduced in Western Australia. It does not mean that there are not a heap of frivolous cases taken there. I note that there have been a number of frivolous cases—I will say 'frivolous', because it has just tied up so much taxpayer money—where accusations have been made, people's reputations have been trashed and there have been no charges. But for the opposition to sit there in question time and try and accuse Senator Carr of being somehow engaged in inappropriate behaviour is nothing short of diabolical. Through you, Mr Deputy President, I reiterate this: if you have something to say on that side, take 30 brave steps to your right and say it outside the chamber. Senator Macdonald will not say it. He is protected in here. I still will not retract mine: he was removed as the minister, so he was not even that good then. (Time expired)

Helen Kroger (Victoria, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What a load of bollocks we have just heard there! In question time today, Senator Bob Carr once again sought to deflect his responsibility as Minister for Foreign Affairs—firstly when he suggested that the question in relation to corruption and upholding those standards had nothing to do with his portfolio. That clearly demonstrates what page the minister is on. In my mind, actions speak much louder than words, and no amount of the rhetorical flourishes and theatrical histrionics that we get from this foreign minister day in and day out makes a dot of difference. It does not compensate for the disgraceful cover-up that we have seen in New South Wales, and I have to say that he has not assured us of his position in relation to the abuse and the awful shenanigans that have taken place in New South Wales and that he was very much part and parcel of. The union movement are part and parcel of it, and not only have they permeated the Labor government but we know they control its agenda. In relation to the scandal and corruption that have been revealed for a long time now in New South Wales, where Labor politicians have paid and continue to pay homage to the likes of Eddie Obeid and Ian Macdonald—individuals that are and have been closely associated with the former Premier of New South Wales, now the foreign minister, Senator Carr—the senator's denials just do not stack up. My advice to the senator is simple, and that is that no-one believes you.

I hate to say, though, that the incidence of behind-the-scenes corruption in New South Wales is endemic and is linked to a wider pervasive corrupt situation across the union movement across the nation. Indeed, there are a plethora of Labor politicians here in Canberra that are here by virtue of the patronage of the union movement. In my home state of Victoria—in my patron seat of Deakin, I have to say—we have another example of this invidious patronage and the activities that they have covered up with their involvement in the union movement. The case in point is Mike Symon, the member for Deakin. When he was the Labor candidate for Deakin back in 2007, Mike Symon was a field officer for an organisation called Protect, which was described as an ETU scam which ripped off employers and channelled money into secret union trust funds.

Carol Brown (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, on a point of order: I understand there is wide latitude given in taking note debates, but I really do not see how Senator Kroger can talk about the seat of Deakin in her contribution on the answers given by Senator Bob Carr here in question time today to questions asked by Senator Fierravanti-Wells.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Brown. Senator Kroger, I do draw your attention to the matter that we are discussing in motions to take note of answers. Senator Kroger, you have the call.

Helen Kroger (Victoria, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thanks, Mr Deputy President. It has direct relevance because what we were seeking is an assurance that the foreign minister was complying with the principles of the convention in how he applied that on the basis of his approach domestically, here in Australia, to the international convention and international transactions. Here is yet another example of where that compliance has been neither sought nor assured. So we have a situation where we have a senator on the other side of the chamber, Gavin Marshall, who was a trustee of the ETU trust fund that channelled money away from insurance premiums that were increased by 30 per cent into a separate trust fund that Mike Symon, the then candidate for Deakin, was the bag collector for. He was the bag collector, and that is what the Labor government have supported. These people are promoted and preselected, and they sit on the opposite side of the chamber.

The Cole royal commission looked into this. They do not want to deal with this, but the Cole royal commission looked into this, and I quote from it. It said, 'Unknown to the employers who contributed to the premiums in this trust fund, a private arrangement was made whereby large sums were paid by a company to the ETU as commission.' A trustee of that was one Senator Gavin Marshall, and the debt collector there was one Mike Symon. (Time expired)

Lin Thorp (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Sometimes it becomes very apparent to me that I have only been in this place for a very short time, because after I saw the front page of the Australian today, with its commonly alarmist headline around the changes to the PBS payments in relation to cancer treatments, I would have thought that that would be something that the members opposite would be interested in.

I thought they would see the alarm and I was correct. There were two questions asked on that issue. It was disappointing that the level of research gone into by those asking the questions was simply that of reading the front page of the Australian,which we all know is so full of facts, I say with a slightly ironic and sarcastic tone. I was hoping when I knew that I was taking note that there would be decent discussion about that issue and I would get the opportunity to put some actual facts on the table about the reports that a cut to the subsidy—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, in taking a point of order, might I remind you that, although the test of relevance in this debate is not direct relevance but the general test of relevance, relevance does mean something. It means that what the senator has to say has to have something to do with the question before the chair. The question before the chair is that the Senate take note of the question about the corruption of the New South Wales government under Senator Bob Carr's premiership and nothing else.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Brandis. Senator Thorp, I was giving you a bit of latitude for one minute to lead into the topic. I trust you are leading into the topic now.

Lin Thorp (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Let me absolutely assure you, Mr Deputy President, that my answer will be far more relevant than the one I was subjected to from the member opposite recently. The nature of the motion that we are debating here today goes to the heart of some of the reasons the Australian public is losing heart in its politicians because, rather than using the opportunity to discuss things that may be of real concern to people—like fallacious reports in that cheap rag the Australian that try and frighten cancer sufferers all over the country—we have to use this important time in this place to not only attack the foreign minister of our country in a public forum like this but also go on to attack other individuals who have no opportunity to defend themselves against these claims. No wonder the Australian people—

Senator Ryan interjecting—

Senator Crossin interjecting—

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senators on my right and left, I ask you to come to order. Senator Thorp, you have the call.

Lin Thorp (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr Deputy President. The only way I can describe it is as extraordinarily mean spirited to constantly be on the attack about individuals rather than policies. We are supposed to be here discussing and debating the policies that directly affect the lives of all Australians.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Deputy President, I have a point of order on relevance. We are halfway through the time allotted to the senator. The senator has not yet addressed any aspect of the question before the chair. She has criticised the opposition for moving the question before the chair, because she considers that other questions are more important, but she has not addressed the question before the chair. Perhaps she is embarrassed to represent in this chamber a political party substantial sections of which are controlled by white-collar criminals. Whatever her motive is, she has to be drawn to the question.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Thorp, you have referred to Minister Carr. You have been broadly relevant, and I just draw your attention again to the matter.

Senator Crossin interjecting—

Senator Crossin, I am ruling in favour of your senator. Would you mind being quiet for the moment. Senator Thorp, you are in order to continue, but I do remind you of the context of the debate.

Lin Thorp (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I believe that my comments are directly relevant because they are talking about the fact that we are using the valuable time of this Senate to attack the credibility and the ethics of a member of this place and to go more broadly than that and actually refer to other individual members of not only this place but also other places. So I believe my comments are directly relevant.

Senator Crossin interjecting—

Yes, fancy having to withdraw that. That was appalling. We are here to work for the good of Australia. In fact, our place on the world stage as represented by the foreign minister, Minister Carr, is one that is enviable. In 2010, from memory, we were described by the United Nations as the second best place to live in the world, and we want things to be of a high standard. Everyone on this side of this place defends the fact that we need to have strong anticorruption measures in place. Of course we do, and we totally and utterly support them. It is unfortunate that there are times when, in the interests of the greater good, these things need to be brought out into the public arena, but they do need to be exposed to the harsh light of day if any impropriety or misbehaviour is taking place. We are all in agreement about that—not to use a debate in this place which could be about things that are really relevant to the Australian people to attack the foreign minister. We have measures in place to deal with that.

The job of this place is to look at the policies that affect the Australian community. That is what the Australian people expect of us, and we, as members of government, know and expect that we should get robust criticism and forensic dissection of all the policies that we are putting into place. That is what we expect of members opposite, not trivial, small-minded, mean-spirited attacks on individuals. It disappoints me, and I am quite confident that it is a source of great disappointment to the Australian people. I am sure that all my colleagues in this place in the Greens and the Independents are disappointed that this opportunity to take note of some of the important issues that were raised today, which included cancer, the situation in Nauru— (Time expired)

Scott Ryan (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Small Business and Fair Competition) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I note, from the previous contribution made in this debate, it seems to be of some surprise to the Labor Party and the government that indeed it is the opposition's job to criticise them, albeit on topics that they might not want to be criticised on. It seems that they are upset that they do not get to choose the issues upon which they are criticised and I note that in question time Senator Lundy seemed to be disappointed and accused Senator Brandis of bringing the government into disrepute, as if somehow that was a failure on behalf of the opposition. But there is a very important reason why that question was asked and people should take note of it. It goes to both the government's and the minister's ability to effectively oversee a department and it goes to the culture of the party that makes up this government. What we are seeing in New South Wales in respect of ministers that were members of the previous Labor government is that the Independent Commission Against Corruption—established because of the corruption of the previous Labor government before that one and that saw ministers of that previous Labor government like Rex Jackson go to prison—is now doing its job a second time and exposing the underbelly of the New South Wales Labor Party to full public view.

I come from Victoria. It seems to me I cannot remember, at least in a systemic sense, the last time a Labor minister in Victoria went to jail. Sadly, citizens of New South Wales can easily remember it in their state. We can remember when former Labor premiers of Western Australia went to prison and we can remember when former Labor ministers in Queensland went to prison, so maybe we from Victoria should be a bit upset that the worst that we can accuse the Labor Party of is incompetence! I do note, however, that there is a number of council scandals, particularly as to Brimbank, where I grew up, and that there is an investigation going on at the moment into Darebin that does involve the behaviour of Labor elected councillors. But this goes to the very culture of the Labor Party, because the culture of the Labor Party is tribal—and they brag about it. The culture of the Labor Party is so tribal that it gives them moral blindness. It gives them a moral blindness which makes those opposite unable to look at the errors and moral failures of the people on their own side.

A sad point is that the previous speaker referred to the disillusionment of the people of Australia with government at the moment. She is quite right, because it is the government of the day that sets the tone—it is the government that sets the tone of political debate; it is the government that sets the tone of the political institutions—and it is this Labor government that has failed on every single test. I find it amazing that we have members of the Labor Party coming in here and complaining about personal attacks when there was nothing of the sort and there was merely a question. That is given the character assassination that happens on the other side of this building whenever the House of Representatives convenes because that is all the Labor Party can bring themselves to do. The problem with what has happened in New South Wales is that it simply does not pass the sniff test. It does not seem in any way that any reasonable person could believe that something untoward was not going on. Let us go to Geoffrey Watson, Senior Counsel, questioning Rosario Triulcio—and I hope I have pronounced that correctly. Mr Watson said:

… "Are you saying that you did anything to investigate the viability of Denola as a farm?"

This is the farm that was purchased and subsequently became worth so much money.

"No," the witness replied.

"Ever go and consult a designer or an architect?"

"No," …

"A town planner?"

"No."

"Local government authority?"

"No."

"Did you know whether it was served by water, sewerage or power?"

"No."

… "You wouldn't have known whether they ran goats or rats or cows there, would you?"

"I'm assuming they didn't run rats," …

The importance of this question goes to the ability of this minister and the ability of this government to effectively and fairly administer on behalf of the people of the Commonwealth of Australia. But there is a bit of a problem with mines and the Labor Party because this is not the first scandal that has happened with respect to a Labor Party minister and a mine. The first big scandal in the state of Queensland was Ted Theodore, as a former premier and with a business partner, selling a mine to the people of Queensland, so to the state of Queensland, at an inflated price without disclosing he was the owner.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Mungana affair.

Scott Ryan (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Small Business and Fair Competition) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Brandis, you are quite right. The problem is that the Labor Party has a pattern of moral blindness. That moral blindness comes from their view that the means that they undertake are justified because the ends are what they deem to be appropriate and particularly what they deem to be appropriate for all the Australian people. But the truth is that the last 20 years have seen a litany of former Labor ministers being dragged before tribunals like this and a litany of some of them even going to prison.

Question agreed to.