Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Does any senator wish to have the question put on that motion?

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I seek leave to make a short statement.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is leave granted? Leave is granted for one minute.

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think there might be a process issue here. I do not think the rationale or detail of this particular proposition has been circulated. I am not aware that it has been circulated. It makes it difficult to form a view as to whether or not something should happen if details and context about the particular proposition have not been circulated.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think that is a fair proposition. My understanding is that these matters are discussed informally at whips meetings.

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

At the time of the whips meeting last night I do not think this had yet been a proposition. When something happens overnight and it has not been circulated to senators, it makes it extremely difficult to form a view as to whether something should happen or not. That is a bit of an ongoing problem with this particular procedure, which has been in place for a relatively short period of time. These things come up first thing in the morning—although not always—with advice to senators about the reason or the rationale.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Siewert, do you want to make some comments on this matter?

Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—I have just been consulting with a member of the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee, and it is my understanding that an email has been circulated to the committee members about a regular private meeting, if that is what we are talking about.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think the minister is saying that that might be okay for the committee, but the Senate does not understand that.

Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is a regular practice now. This does not happen for all the other meetings. There have been dozens of these meetings since this process started, and it is only Legal and Cons that this happens with. I have not heard Senator Fifield ask about the other meetings that have come up for agreement in this place.

Anne McEwen (SA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—My understanding, from emails that I received as a participating member of the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee, is that this meeting is to set the estimates program. Is that correct?

Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No. This is the references committee.

David Bushby (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—My understanding, and I have just received advice from the clerks, is that normally the advices of these proposals to meet are circulated, appropriately, to the whips. The first we knew about it yesterday was that it was on the draft red. We indicated at the cross-whips meeting last night that we did not have a position. The reason we did not have a position was that we had not received the circulated notice. The advice I have received is that that was an oversight. They normally are circulated; this one was not. The reason why we could not form a position as to whether we should proceed was that it was not circulated to our office.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The situation is this: the Senate now has the opportunity to vote on this. That is why these proposals are raised in the manner that they are raised. The Senate now has an opportunity to deliberate. If senators are uncomfortable, they can vote accordingly. I think you are trying to circumvent this going to a vote, Minister?

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—The process has not worked. I have just been advised that not only was it not circulated yesterday; it has not been circulated today. I am advised that there was an oversight. It has not been circulated. The purpose of circulation is so that the various groupings in the Senate can consult internally to determine their position. That opportunity has not been afforded.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question before the chair at the moment is that this committee be given authority to meet or not. If there are problems with the procedure that we currently have, can I suggest that the matter be raised at the Procedure Committee.

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—The laws of physics dictate that I cannot occupy two places at the same time. I cannot be in this chamber talking, as I am at the moment, and at the same time consulting with my relevant colleagues on this issue. So it is not reasonable to expect a vote to take place on something which has not been circulated. It is not my fault and it is not the fault of anyone sitting in this chamber, so I do not think it is reasonable that we be expected to vote upon something that we have not had the opportunity to reflect on and to consult on.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, that is the only course of action that we have open to us. Either we grant permission by resolution for this committee to meet or the motion does not go through as it usually automatically does. I gather from the debate we are having that it is desirable now to have this matter put to a vote.

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—I just indicate on that basis that, not having had the opportunity to consult with relevant colleagues and because I do not know the background to this proposition, we will need to vote no.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—I think Senator Fifield has raised a procedural issue in terms of receiving notice of this meeting. It has been confirmed that it was an oversight. Rather than having a vote at this stage, which I think would be unnecessary and a precedent that we do not need, I say we defer to a later time the question of this committee meeting, to allow the notice to be circulated, and then have a vote—before 3.30 this afternoon.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The appropriate stage would be the placing of business, which will commence at about five to 12, but the Senate will have to grant leave to diverge from the usual arrangements. Do I gather that there is consensus on deferring this matter until the placing of business? No-one objects to that course of action? In that case, the matter will be deferred until the placing of business today.

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—I would just indicate that I am not reflecting on Senator Siewert; she has not done anything inappropriate. What I am reflecting on is the fact that the usual internal processes have not been followed, which has denied colleagues the opportunity to consult on the question.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Which is unprecedented. It has never been done previously.

Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Siewert, you have the call, but I am keen to wrap this up.

Rachel Siewert (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

there are two things here. I did not take it as a reflection, Senator Fifield, so that is fine. But what I was going to comment on earlier when I was bobbing up and down was the point that Senator Moore made, which was about deferral. However, overall, Senator Fifield's comments earlier could have been interpreted as a reflection on the whole of this process not working, and I want to put that to bed; I think it is working. There has been a breakdown in this particular case, I think, rather than it being a reflection on the way that we are seeking approval for these meetings.

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

by leave—Mr President, this will be my final comment on this.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Fifield.

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I also think that there are some issues with the timeliness with which these matters are circulated. There is a very short gap between when they are circulated and this point of the day, which makes it more difficult—not impossible but more difficult—to consult with colleagues than it previously was under the former arrangements.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In summary, then, we have deferred this matter until the placing of business later today. I also encourage the whips to have a discussion about this and, if there is deemed to be a flaw in the procedure, to formally write to me in relation to having this matter examined by the Procedure Committee.