Dorinda Cox (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I know it's some time, as others in this place have mentioned, since the Governor-General actually gave his address. In that address the Governor-General stated:

The Government commits to engage closely and respectfully with First Nations people, and the Australian community more broadly, ahead of the referendum.

It shouldn't actually take an item of the government's agenda to treat First Nations people in this country with respect. This respect should not be limited to a referendum process, and First Nations people should be treated with respect from the day our land was actually invaded and every day since then.

Yet, First Nations people are continuing to fight for their land and their sea country, for the protection of their cultural heritage and, in particular, for their human rights in this country. Unfortunately, much of this has already been destroyed. We see this particularly at Murujuga and Juukan Gorge and the development projects such as Barossa, Beetaloo, Scarborough and the Narrabri gas fields. The list goes on and on and is quite extensive, and time and time again we have seen the cultural heritage of traditional owners tossed aside in the name of corporate interests.

Murujuga contains the largest and oldest collection of rock art in the world. As of this week, it has been referred to the UNESCO World Heritage Committee, yet this government will not commit to stopping the expansion of projects on the Burrup Peninsula that continue to destroy this ancient cultural heritage. They have in fact continued to help fast-track Pluto 3 and 4, with the acid rain that rains down from the emissions destroying this wonderful rock art and, in fact, impacting on the songlines of the seven sisters in this area. Traditional owners refused permission to have these rocks relocated on multiple occasions—particularly the Circle of Elders—making it clear that their preference was for this rock art to remain undisturbed and intact. They agreed to the removal of those rocks that contain that rock art only once they were advised that it wasn't possible or even an option for that to remain intact.

Nothing about this process at Murujuga respects the principles of free, prior and informed consent. It is coercion, it is manipulation and it is continued through a 40-year-old BMIEA agreement between the state and the traditional owners in that area. This agreement allows industry to run rampant, and traditional owners to have a little say on the side and be consulted with, but in fact nothing in this agreement is about consent. It clearly does not outline their consent in relation to the removal of those rocks, what's happening with Pluto 3 and 4, and the expansion of the Woodside project there. The traditional owners clearly did not consent after much discussion with the state and federal government. In fact, the campaign on Save our Songlines has submitted their section 10 protest to this removal of rocks, both here where the fossil fuel industry grows right before their very eyes and at the Perdaman Euroa fertiliser site.

Let's move to the Tiwi Islands, where traditional owners challenged NOPSEMA, the independent regulator, and Santos over their lack of consultation. 'Lack of consultation' is putting that really nicely for the Barossa gas project. But guess what? They won. They won because there were two emails and an unanswered phone call—that was all that Santos thought the traditional owners from the Munupi clan—one clan group of eight—deserved as part of consultation. Tell me, fellow colleagues in this chamber, does that sound like respectful engagement to you for people whose land it is? This case has set a legal precedence now to put fossil fuel companies in this country on notice—and so it should. This has sector-wide implications, and I congratulate the Munupi people of the Tiwi Islands, their traditional owners, for taking a stand against industry. In fact, they are the cultural giants. They are the people that deserve to be consulted and to provide their consent for what is happening on their land and sea country.

These sites are important not only to traditional owners but also to all of us in this country—First Nations people or not. This is our collective history. It is our culture, and we should all be proud of this. We should all be eager to protect it. It's unacceptable that, time and time again, First Nations people are being forced to give up and, in fact, made to stand by and watch as people rip the soul out of our country and destroy our water. We are left standing there as innocent bystanders, unable to say anything because cultural heritage is for sale in this country and it's for somebody else's profit.

Time and time again, we've heard that cultural heritage laws in this country are too weak and they must be strengthened. The government now must walk the walk, because at this moment, they're doing what the government did before, and before, and before. Successive government legacies are left behind about taking advantage of these weak laws at the expense of traditional owners in this country and at the expense of First Nations cultural heritage in this country. You may ask, 'What is the solution to that?' The solution is very simple. It is to adopt all three elements of the Uluru Statement From the Heart plus stronger cultural heritage laws and other legislative changes like the ratification of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. These all play a pivotal and important role in protecting our cultural heritage, and I will keep fighting for all of them to be included.

The quote of the Governor-General during his speech is:

… the Government will invest in First Nations management of lands and waters, humbly recognising the skills and knowledge gained over tens of thousands of years.

It is a great statement, but, once again, we must centre and we must make sure that the respect for First Nations science, which should have already been done from day one, is actually actioned, is done, is there, isn't allowed to be moved and taken away. With our deep connection to our water, our land and our precise methods of maintaining our vast and diverse lands that have been supported and not systemically destroyed by people who came here after that, we could be living, in fact, in a very different nation now. But, once again, we have to fight for hundreds of years just to have our ancient knowledge acknowledged, respected and taken seriously.

As the Australian Greens portfolio hold for science, I really look forward to seeing government's genuine investment in First Nations science and the government treating it on equal footing with Western science in this country. One is no better than the other, and they are systems with deep understanding of which the world we live. We, as the traditional owners and custodians of this country, have been caring for it for tens of thousands of years. It is well beyond time that we strengthen and make stronger legislative standards surrounding First Nations cultural heritage and allow First Nations people to take a self-determined role to care for their own land and water. We may not be able to recover what we've lost, but by God we could absolutely protect what is still left. But we have to act now.

It is, in fact, why I am here in this place. I will continue to raise my voice and to hold this government to account just as we've heard from members of the opposition. The Greens will continue to talk about the issues that are important, because we don't want this referendum to be a farce. We don't want this process not to deliver any of the important things that I've just referred to and that the Governor-General came into this place and talked about when we all started here last year. We want a process that is fulsome, that is going to deliver outcomes for First Nations people in this country, because we can't just keep hearing the rhetoric that people keep using about this as if it's 'over there'. This is an issue that needs to be centred in this place, and it is now time.

Jess Walsh (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I too rise to speak in response to the Governor-General's address at the opening of this 47th Parliament. Given the importance of the ongoing process of reconciliation in that address and to our own government's agenda, I'd first like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land that we're meeting on today and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. I also want to extend my respect to the Wurundjeri and Bunurong people, the traditional owners of the land on which I live and work in my home state of Victoria. I remind the chamber that it was the Rudd Labor government back in 2008 that invited traditional owners to first hold such a welcome to country ceremony as we are so often now accustomed to participating in here in this parliament. On that very same day, it was the Rudd Labor government that delivered the national apology to First Nations people. Both were important steps in the long march towards reconciliation, and under the Albanese Labor government, we will take another significant step towards reconciliation by implementing the Uluru Statement from the Heart in full. It's a statement that invites us to walk alongside First Nations people in a movement for a better future—a future that calls for a voice, for treaty and for truth.

This year, a referendum on the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice will occur, and it's about two things: recognition and consultation. The Voice will empower First Nations people, because, for too long, decisions have been made about First Nations communities and not with them.

I'm proud that, in my home state of Victoria, the Andrews Labor government is well underway in our own treaty and truth-telling process. The Australian people will have the opportunity to embrace the invitation of the Uluru Statement from the Heart under our government—a process that we can all engage with as we move forward together.

The federal election in May last year offered Australians a real choice. It was a choice between more of the same from those opposite, or a change of direction with an Albanese Labor government—a Labor government committed to delivering a better future for all Australians. Back then the people made their choice, and now we are getting on with delivering that future. We are tackling the big challenges that we face with the mix of urgency and steadiness characteristic of our team. We're taking real action on climate change. We're repairing our international reputation and strengthening relationships with our Pacific family. We're getting on with the job of rebuilding Australian manufacturing by establishing the National Reconstruction Fund. We're strengthening our Medicare system to ensure access for all. We're putting transparency, integrity and compassion back into politics, and we're facing the cost-of-living crisis and the inflation pressure head on.

In my first speech, I spoke about the jobs crisis that we face in this country. I spoke about a crisis of low and stagnant wages and rising job insecurity—a crisis that the former government not only refused to address, but celebrated as a deliberate design feature of their economic plan. I said back then that we needed to change direction, and we have. I said at the time that we needed government to get back in the driver's seat and back to work, and I'm proud that the Albanese Labor government is doing just that.

We've put good, secure jobs at the centre of our plan for a better future. We've put determination to deliver at the heart of our government, starting with successfully advocating for a real pay rise for Australia's lowest-paid workers. In doing this, we brought together unions, employers, community groups and governments to map the path forward to delivering secure, well-paid jobs and strong sustainable wages growth, allowing Australians to not just keep their heads above water but to actually thrive and flourish.

We know that the Australians who sent us here are counting on us, so we're bringing our connection with Australian workers and the struggles they face right onto the floor of this parliament. We're bringing their stories and their determination for a better life to the heart of our government—stories of the hope to earn enough to be free from worry; stories of the need for more security, to buy a home and to plan for the future; stories of the belief that, in Australia, of all countries, a fair day's work for a fair day's pay is never too much to ask.

We will always stand up for the women workers of Australia and we will always stand up for women to be safe at work, and at home and everywhere. It's why we've legislated 10 paid days of domestic and family violence leave, as I had the privilege to speak about in the chamber yesterday after what I can only describe as a truly remarkable and inspirational speech from my colleague representing the Northern Territory, Malarndirri McCarthy, about the challenges of family violence in her community.

Because we want to stand up for women being safe everywhere, paid domestic and family violence leave is in place in this country today, and it's a policy that will save lives. Because we want to stand up for the women of Australia, we put gender equality at the heart of our industrial relations system. We've made it an objective of the secure jobs, better pay bill that passed the parliament last year. It's why we've introduced, just now, in this sitting, the workplace gender equality bill, spearheaded by the Minister for Women, who's also the Minister for Finance, Minister Gallagher. We will not ignore the women of Australia. We have never ignored their pain or their protests, and we have not shut them out of our own party. Indeed, we are proudly a government with women on 52 per cent of our benches. We are here to listen to the women of Australia, and we will.

We'll also fight for good, secure jobs in manufacturing, as we are doing right now with the passage of the National Reconstruction Fund bill through the parliament. My home state of Victoria is the heartland of Australian manufacturing, and it's something that we Victorians are really proud of. Victorians, and all Australians, want us to make more of what we need right here at home. Australians want to be proud that we can stand on our own two feet, and they want a government that invests in industry—industry that can deliver the quality jobs of the future, jobs that Australians can count on. So I'm proud to be here as part of an Albanese Labor government that has hit the ground running and that's prioritised rebuilding Australian manufacturing.

The contrast couldn't be clearer with the previous government when it comes to Australia's manufacturing industries and our sovereign capability. The previous government pushed the car industry off a cliff, they failed to seize the opportunity of an Australian-made path to emissions reductions and they failed to prioritise Australian medical manufacturers, even during the pandemic crisis. They sat back while thousands of manufacturing jobs were lost every year. Our government's vision for a better future is one that is made right here in Australia, and our flagship legislation to achieve that will establish the $15 billion National Reconstruction Fund. We on the government benches know that this reform will support our communities by creating good, secure jobs that are well paid in our manufacturing industries. At the same time, we will be able to diversify and grow our economy, and ensure our supply chains and our sovereign capability.

By putting Australian manufacturers first, we'll ensure that our path towards net zero emissions is one that actually creates Australian jobs, because there is a global race on to seize the opportunities of a renewable energy future. But we all remember how the former government felt about races. Instead of putting Australia at the front of this global race, they wasted nearly a decade. The former government was just too divided to agree on the science of climate change and the solutions that we need to put in place to embrace a renewable energy future. They were too busy fighting each other to step up and lead, and, instead, they've left us behind the rest of the pack.

But what we, as the Albanese Labor government, know is that our country and our region are facing the worst of this climate emergency. We know that Australia has the chance to become a renewable energy superpower, and we know that Australians, more than anything, just want us to get on with it. They want an end to the climate wars, and it's why we legislated our emissions reduction targets of 43 per cent by 2030 and net zero by 2050. And it's why we're getting on with creating new jobs in the industries of the future, like wind, solar and battery manufacturing, with announcements focused on the battery industry made by Minister Husic just this week. These are jobs that are important in my home state of Victoria, where we're building offshore wind in Gippsland in partnership with the Victorian state government. The Albanese government have a plan to deliver more jobs, more opportunities and more economic growth for our country while we also play our part to act on the world's climate emergency.

We're also getting on with the job of delivering meaningful investments that maximise economic impact and meet community needs. We understand that the cost of living is hitting Australians hard, and our economic plan is a direct and deliberate response to the challenges facing the economy, most notably the cost of living. That's why one of the very first acts of this government was to successfully argue for the minimum wage to keep pace with inflation, an outcome which helped around 2.7 million Australians keep their head above water. Our October budget focused on cost-of-living relief that didn't put any extra pressure on inflation. That was the critical objective of our October budget. That calm and sensible approach was noted by ratings agencies. In affirming our AAA credit rating they actually pointed to the fact that our budget did not add to inflation pressure as a factor in their decision-making.

We are delivering more affordable housing, including through the new National Housing Accord. We're making child care cheaper and expanding Paid Parental Leave. We're delivering 180,000 fee-free TAFE places in 2023. We're making medicines cheaper. We were the first government ever to reduce the PBS co-payment. This will mean that the maximum Australians will have to pay for essential medicines on the PBS is $30, saving around $300 a year for the average person and ensuring that no-one has to miss filling a script because they just can't afford the medications they need. Pensions, allowances and rent assistance are all increasing in line with inflation. We've also bought in the new pensioner work bonus so that older Australians can keep more of what they earn without affecting their pension. And we're proud to be getting wages moving again.

Over the past three years we have taken the time to listen to Australians, and we've been able to bring the stories of Australians right to the heart of our new government. We've heard their stories of hope for a better future. We've heard their stories of the need for more security in their jobs and in their lives. We've heard the belief of Australians that we can be better together, and we share that belief and we're fighting for it. We have a hope for a better future for our next generation. We know people need security to plan their lives. We know that together we can build a more caring society and one that is strong, diverse and builds people up, not leaves them behind.

Raff Ciccone (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It has been just over half a year since the Australian people elected the Albanese Labor government with a vision for a better future, and we've not wasted a single moment, as others would have heard also in the comments of my good friend and senator for the state of Victoria. One of the government's very first acts after coming into office was to successfully argue for a significant increase to the minimum wage—it was over five per cent—after almost a decade of the former Liberal and National government deliberately keeping wages low. As pressures on global supply chains around the world and increasing interest rates continue to put upward pressure on the cost of living, wage increases ensured that the purchasing power of everyday Australians, mainly our lowest-paid workers, did not slip backwards. For too long the federal government hadn't been in the Fair Work Commission arguing on the side of workers to receive their fair share. In fact, they had been happy to see wages fall in real terms. They famously described low wage growth as a deliberate design feature of their economic architecture.

The real wages of essential workers—those who work in retail stores, those working in hospitality, cleaners, nurses and all those who worked on the frontline during COVID who were working long hours to make sure we all could manage to get to the supermarket and get our food and get our masks and who worked tirelessly throughout the night to ensure we were kept safe and, really, got us through the worst of the pandemic—unfortunately had been slipping for many years under the coalition government. But now these workers finally have a government that is on their side and is going to the independent umpire, arguing on their behalf for increased wages. The Labor government is arguing for a decent wage increase that keeps up with the cost of living, and this is already bearing fruit, with the Fair Work Commission's most recent decision. This is on top of the government's commitment to increase wages for those in the aged-care sector and other sectors that have been underfunded for many, many years.

Wages aren't the only thing that working people are worried about. We are all concerned about retirement outcomes. The most essential ingredient for a successful retirement is a healthy superannuation balance. The Liberals have always been on the wrong side of the super debate, sadly. They have undermined super by endlessly delaying increases in the superannuation guarantee and using it as a fix for their own political problems internally within the coalition. But, in contrast, federal Labor believes in a very strong super system, one that actually works for members and delivers positive returns on behalf of working Australians. We know that super plays an important role in our economy and is essential to ensuring positive retirement outcomes for working families. So it was very positive to see a permanent increase in the superannuation guarantee from 10 per cent to 10½ per cent. What does this mean? It means, for the average worker, they will see around an extra $15,000 when they come to retire. That's a very significant increase for millions of Australians.

Another major focus of our government has been repairing and improving our international relationships. It was only three days after the federal election that the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, was representing Australia at the Quad Leaders Summit, setting our commitment to Liberal democratic values and a free, open and resilient Indo-Pacific, especially with the issues we have had to deal with over the last little while with respect to China and other issues. We recognise the fact that it is in the mutual interest of nations that are committed to democracy to collaborate in multinational and multilateral bodies like the Quad. It was very important for the Prime Minister to represent our country at that meeting.

Our involvement in these bodies does not in any way dilute or compromise Australian values. Rather, it engages the international community. That is, as I said, the responsible way to assert and protect our values, which we have fought so hard for in the region. I have been particular pleased to make contributions to these efforts as the newly elected chair of the Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee. I am very passionate about ensuring our values are protected and asserted on the world stage. I look forward to continue to work with all my colleagues on the committee in Australia's national interest.

Australia has a proud history of standing up for our own backyard, particularly with the international threats of China and the issues around the Taiwan Strait but also those closer to home in the Pacific. We are re-engaging in with our Pacific island friends and putting out a hand and seeing what support we can offer them after these troubling times over the course of COVID. We're assisting our Pacific neighbours where possible. I think it's fair to say that we have been greeted with open arms and a change of attitude towards how they see Australia on the international stage. We have to get right to work on repairing those relationships through not just direct engagement but also policy shifts that are in the interests of both Australia and our Pacific family.

Our international efforts go beyond the Indo-Pacific. Prime Minister Albanese attended the NATO summit and also took up President Zelenskyy's offer to visit Ukraine. There, the Prime Minister witnessed firsthand the devastating impact of Russia's illegal invasion and announced additional military support, including more Bushmasters, made down in Bendigo in my home state, Victoria. Just as we did in opposition, our government condemns Russia's invasion and will continue to support the Ukrainian defence effort.

We're also following through on our election commitment to stronger action on climate change, investing in new technologies and legislating a sensible target to ensure that we do meet not just business and community expectations but expectations right across the world. Businesses have been desperate for almost a decade to have some certainty as well—certainty to ensure that they can also invest in newer technologies to tackle climate change and create high-paying jobs in this country. It was clear that the country needed a change in climate policy direction, and the National Farmers Federation and the Business Council of Australia have both welcomed our Powering Australia plan. This desire for change was clearly evident in the election result back in May of last year.

Labor's plan for economic opportunities across regional Australia acknowledges the contribution that farmers are already making towards our climate goals, and I do hope that all senators recognise the urgent need for policy certainty in this space and support the Albanese government's efforts to reduce our emissions and create these new jobs, with a particular focus on the regions. It is very important that we do support our regions.

The consequences of the coalition's policy failures in this area have never been more obvious than in the energy crisis that hit Australia in early June of last year. Our ageing transmission grid simply could not get renewable energy, grow it in abundance and reduce it in price every day to get it to where it needs to be today. Especially with the uptake of new technologies and cars, particularly with vehicles using electricity, it is important that we start to upgrade our electrical grid right across the country to ensure that we can supply that bandwidth of energy that's needed.

The Liberals and Nationals are also not very good at announcing their energy policies. When they did, they had a lot of practice in changing their minds on many, many occasions. Their dismal failure was in delivery: they announced a lot of ideas, but, when it came to delivery, there was nothing more than a media release. I'll give one example. There were $1 billion of energy projects that never generated power at all and oversaw four gigawatts of power leaving the energy market while only one gigawatt actually came online. We ultimately had a deficit of around three gigawatts.

But we are getting on with the job and fixing this mess. It's clearer than ever that our plan to upgrade the energy grid is essential. Senators should recognise this and support the government in its efforts to clean up this mess. Early last year I spent a bit of time in the Senate talking about how Australia also needs to rebuild its domestic manufacturing capabilities, something that I think has been neglected for some time. The global uncertainty dominated the headlines for some time, but it certainly put on the table and exposed our supply chains that were lacking investment and lacking vision. You could actually feel the impact, especially when people were rushing to go to the supermarket in order to get goods and services.

Despite the devastating impact that was felt around the nation during COVID, there have also been moments of great opportunity. One part of our economy where the greatest opportunity has been experienced is agriculture. I've spoken quite a bit about agriculture and the resilience of the ag industry in this place. Australia's agriculture industry adapted above expectations. Despite arbitrary tariffs and restrictions on goods that we saw from overseas, such as on beef, wine and barley, producers have shown time and time again a strong ability to diversify their export destinations and establish routes in new markets. I really do want to take my hat off to all those who were involved.

The other side of the ag equation, the inputs that are required to produce all the goods that we are exporting, is not nearly as diversified and had not received nearly as much attention from the previous government. I think there are attempts here to at least try and rectify some of those. I'm not trying to lay the blame squarely at the last government but I do think that—

Paul Scarr (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Just 99 per cent!

Raff Ciccone (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Just 99 per cent. I think there are genuine attempts to rectify but also train our business community that we shouldn't always be investing just in one country. It is important that we don't have all our eggs in the one basket. It's about also encouraging that mindset of thinking 10 steps ahead, just in case there is, unfortunately, another pandemic or disaster in the future. It is important that there is support there by government.

The department of agriculture, when they did their most recent snapshot of the industry, showed that Australian ag accounted for 11 per cent of all our goods and services that were exported, including value-adding processes. Ag, forestry and fisheries contributed about 12 per cent to GDP. That was around $150 billion every single year.

Ag has always been part of our national history and a very strong source of prosperity, given its importance to our economy generally. But Australian businesses have already been feeling the impact of the global supply chain disruptions, amid a perfect storm of factors. From COVID, we had increased consumer spending, we had Labor shortages and we had climate related disasters. On top of that, China ended up banning urea, which made the problem a lot worse.

As we know, urea is a very important ingredient. I think, at the time, there was some media around how that would have impacted on AdBlue, an additive used in fuels for a lot of our trucks. Without our trucks moving this country, quite frankly, Australia stops. Our truckies do a fantastic job. I want to pay tribute to any of those listening on ABC radio. I just hope they're doing a great job, especially those up in northern Western Australian at the moment who are, no doubt, transporting quite a bit of goods between Perth and Darwin, and God knows where else they're coming from. Good on them for the hard work they do. There were moves to reduce urea exports, which did expose how resilient sections of the Australian economy were on the global supply chain.

That is just one example of where the previous government was left scrambling to find alternative sources. But I think it's fair to say that we have all learned, in this place, our lessons. There are genuine attempts to ensure that such issues don't occur or are, at least, minimised. We need to make sure that we do start to minimise our risks in this country, when it comes to our global supply chains.

The pandemic also demonstrated that Australia must proactively take steps to secure its supply of key economic inputs. This will require scaling up domestic manufacturing. It's why the Albanese government is working very hard with industry to develop capabilities that we need to ensure that Australian's supply chains remain resilient. This should not be mistaken for a foreign policy that would see Australia withdraw from the international community. Our country has and always will be a trading nation. But it is prudent that as a trading nation we take steps to secure all aspects of our supply chain, including necessary inputs, and where these inputs can be made here, they should so do.

It is important that we back in our manufacturing sector, because it is so important that we retain the number of jobs that support our regional communities right across Australia. Australia must be a country that makes things here.

Matt O'Sullivan (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I realise I'll be coming up against a hard marker on the conclusion of this debate in about 90 seconds, so I'll save the bulk of my message on the budget reply until I get the opportunity to return to this debate. I want to make this one point. There's an old proverb that says, 'Hope deferred makes the heart sick.' This government, over here, when they were in opposition, took to the Australian people a whole bunch of things and promised a lot, and what we're seeing is that they are not delivering—firstly, on energy prices. They said, over 90 times—the Prime Minister himself said it—that Australians will see a reduction of their electricity bills by $275. Yet we've seen them abandon that. They're not pursuing it, whatsoever.

Secondly, where 'hope deferred' is certainly making the heart sick is in some of our regional communities, particularly in my home state of Western Australia. There are towns like Laverton, Leonora, the Goldfields, Kalgoorlie and the East Kimberley, where you have the cashless debit card. They took to the Australian people the abolition of the cashless debit card, promising that doing so would resolve problems, but all we've seen is that it has exacerbated the domestic violence and abuse that's going on in these towns. This has happened on their watch because of their pursuit of inner-city ideology that is getting in the way of practical solutions for communities, which is what the cashless debit card was.

Debate interrupted.