Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I refer senators to the statement made by Minister Farrell on 17 October 2023.

Jordon Steele-John (WA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate take note of the statement.

In response to the government's restatement of their previous statement: this is getting a bit ridiculous now, folks. This is a demand of the Senate for the government to comply with an order for the production of documents. This is a very serious matter. This chamber is given the power to request documents of the government. In going about the process of refusing to provide that information, the government, having made a public interest immunity claim, must satisfy the basic criteria of such a claim. Let me quote them directly so that the words are freshly in the mind of the government: 'The government must explain the harm that would be caused to the relationships between the Commonwealth, states and territories if that is the basis upon which the claim is made.' They have not made clear what specific harm will be caused to these relationships resulting from the release of this information. The Senate is requesting the details in relation to the NDIS financial sustainability framework that has been agreed to by the Prime Minister, the premiers and the territory chief ministers. Upon the basis of that framework, the government has booked tens of billions of dollars worth of reductions in NDIS expenditure. That practically means a reduction in the supports available to disabled people to have a shower, to meet up with our friends, to go to work, to interact with our family members, to access our therapies, to be able to get the wheelchairs and the assistive technologies that we need. This is serious stuff that impacts our lives. They got together in a room, agreed on a framework and are now refusing to release it when they used their own budget to book savings based on this framework. And now, in a blatant, flagrant disregard for the role of the Senate, they are not even, at every sitting period, as they are required, coming to this place and giving an updated explanation for their continued refusal to comply with the orders. This is beginning to look a bit shifty, folks! This is beginning to look like they've got something to hide. This is beginning to look like the Labor government, elected on a platform of ending the duplicity, the dishonesty and the disregard with which the former government treated disabled people, have instead decided to pick up the same playbook. This is completely unacceptable conduct from a government that promised a reset in the relationship between disabled people, the NDIS and the Australian government. This framework should have been made public the minute it was finalised in a form sufficient enough to be sent to the National Cabinet.

The chopping and changing of stories in relation to this information beggars belief. First they told us it didn't exist. Then they told us it did exist, but they wouldn't give it to us because to give it to the Australian public would be to damage relationships between the states, the territories and the Commonwealth. What absolute nonsense! And you can see that it is nonsense because they ain't backed up the claim. All they would have to do to satisfy this order for the production of documents, to satisfy the basis of their public interest claim, would be to pony up and share exactly how it would damage that relationship, to cough up some correspondence between these premiers and chief ministers where they had requested the Commonwealth make this claim. They haven't because it doesn't exist.

The Commonwealth is just playing a game. The Albanese government is insulting disabled people, and it is insulting this Senate. So far, this place has maintained a solidarity of pressure upon the government to comply. Let us see how long that lasts. But I can tell the chamber very clearly: the Australian Greens want this information on behalf of disabled people. We are in solidarity with the community that is demanding that the Albanese government be open and honest about what they have agreed in relation to our NDIS.

Hollie Hughes (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I would like to echo the sentiment shared by Senator Steele-John. I can assure you, as long as I'm standing here, the coalition will also be standing up for people with disability, participants on the NDIS and their families. This is absolutely shameful—a request for documents that would apparently damage the relationship between the states and territories? Some of us that have been around the NDIS space for a while know that former prime minister Julia Gillard gave a leave pass to every single state and territory government to absolutely abandon the playing field when it came to disability services that are supposed to be developed, produced and rolled out by state governments. Instead, they have vacated the field. They have left everything to the sole responsibility of the NDIS. I know this because community health services stopped for my son because he had a diagnosed disability. We were told we had to go to the NDIS. The NDIS didn't exist in the rural and regional town we lived in, but that didn't matter. The community health run by the New South Wales state government told us we could no longer access those services because of a diagnosed disability. It was shameful. You can only imagine the phone calls I made about that, and it was rectified for children across the Hunter-New England region. That's no longer the case—or it certainly wasn't 10 years ago.

It is absolutely disgraceful from a government that came to power claiming they'd be transparent and as opaque as possible when it came to the people who are the most vulnerable in our society. This government owes absolutely every NDIS participant and their family an apology. You are out there espousing, as a government, that there are savings to be made, that the growth will be capped. We don't know how. Are you going to start chucking people off? Are you going to start excluding disabilities? How is this going to be made possible? Apparently you know, because there is agreement between the state and the Commonwealth. But you are too cosied up and buddied up to be honest and up-front with people with a disability. Shame on you.

This is beyond disgraceful. But if we ever needed to see what a shambles this government is, and how much disrespect they have for this chamber—because they constantly show it—it is the fact that their depth of talent is so shallow that we have four ministers in this place and at the moment we have only one in the building. They are so incompetent and so incapable of treating not only this chamber but the Australian people with any respect. They govern for their union mates and themselves and nobody else. They certainly don't govern for people with a disability. They do not govern for people with NDIS plans, nor support their families. They are a disgrace. They should own up to the disgrace.

I look forward to standing up with Senator Steele-John—which is a very unusual partnership—to continue demanding these documents and anything else that will give certainty to those in our community who are most vulnerable. No wonder none of you can look up. No wonder no-one sitting in this chamber is from the government side. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Linda Reynolds (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I too rise to speak again on this motion in relation to the NDIS Sustainability Framework. Last time I spoke on this I was almost speechless at the arrogance of the Labor Party. But to have Senator McAllister stand up here for less than 15 seconds to address the largest fraud that I think has ever been perpetrated on Australian taxpayers, and also on the 610,000 Australians with serious and permanent disability who are on the NDIS, is a complete disgrace.

When I was minister I ensured that all key financial and actuarial data was regularly published in full, including monthly updates. And it is a shame, and it is a stain on those opposite, that not only did they get rid of the monthly reports—the last third-quarter report is nowhere to be seen—but also they have confirmed that they are not going to release this year's Annual financial sustainability report for the NDIS. And they've just dropped the annual report for the NDIS—funnily enough, a few days after estimates, so we could not scrutinise it at estimates. Having read the annual report of the NDIS, I can say that it is no wonder that those opposite are now trying to hide from the Australian people the fraud that they are imposing on them.

Three years ago, as minister, I extended the hand of bipartisanship—in fact, multipartisanship—to those opposite, to start acknowledging the sustainability issues that the NDIS had and some of the fundamental structural issues that needed to be changed to ensure that this scheme could endure. Instead, Bill Shorten perpetuated the—I was going to say something unparliamentary—the untruth that there were no sustainability issues with the NDIS. And he promised before the election, 'There are no sustainability issues' and that he would not cut a single plan and that everything could go along hunky-dory. Instead of taking action, he's had yet another review, which will be a two-year review, which by all accounts will not be released publicly, and he has done nothing.

But not only has he done nothing with the scheme; it is far, far worse. The government have now denied the Australian people and NDIS participants the actuarial data that demonstrates the basis on which they have made their budget forecasts. Let me go through a little bit. Under law, they have to provide the Annual financial sustainability report. The last one that we published was 239 pages of detailed actuarial data on the scheme. So, everybody could see the basis on which, out over a decade, the costs would be incurred for this scheme. But not only have the government suppressed the last financial year's Annual financial sustainability report; these 239 pages have been replaced with—how many pages in the annual report, do you think?—four pages. And it is four pages in big text which says pretty much nothing. You certainly cannot work out the actuarial underpinnings of their 10-year budget forecast, including the forward estimates.

But one thing that probably galled Minister Shorten no end is that he could not stop the government actuary's report on the scheme going into the annual report, and—my goodness!—is this revealing. Project costs are higher than the previous financial sustainability report projected. The June 2013 projections assumed agency administration expenses would be 18 per cent higher than what they have budgeted out to 2026. Somehow, based on no actuarial public data, those on that side have ripped $74 billion out of the NDIS over the next 10 years. They are now hiding the actuarial data which would demonstrate how it is. What they have done in the forward estimates over the next three years, funnily enough, to get them through to the next election and past the next election, is invest $700 million. Over the forward estimates, that $700 million is supposed to find nearly $15 billion worth of savings without any data. It is a fraud. Everybody in the NDIS knows it. Shame on those opposite for having such contempt, with a PII claim that they have not explained. Shame on them.

Paul Scarr (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is deeply, deeply concerning. To explain to those in the gallery and those who are listening what is happening here, the Greens, the opposition and senators representing their individual states and territories are seeking key financial information with respect to one of the largest social programs this country has—namely, the NDIS, which provides assistance to hundreds of thousands of Australians and should be providing assistance into the future for hundreds of thousands of more Australians. What we are seeking is key financial information regarding whether or not or how this important program will be sustainable into the future so that it can continue to provide support to some of our most vulnerable Australians. The government is denying us the key information that Senator Reynolds has referred to and which Senator Steele-John has referred to. This is key financial information with respect to the sustainability of that program.

Senator Reynolds referred to the fact that when she was the responsible minister that key financial information was being released on a monthly basis so that Australians—taxpayers and those with relatives, family or friends who are relying on this system—could actually see whether or not the system was sustainable. They have a right to know that information, and the Senate is seeking that information not for our own sake as individual senators but for their sake so that we can engage in the public debate about how we make this important program sustainable.

With barely a sentence—I don't know if it even went to two sentences—the relevant assistant minister at the table refused to give us that relevant information under the cloak of supposed issues relating to federal and state relationships. So the argument is that, if this critical information is provided to this Senate, in some way it is going to harm federal and state relationships. You're all thinking what I'm thinking—how? How would releasing information with respect to the financial sustainability of the NDIS affect Commonwealth-state relations? How? There's no explanation as to how. There's no evidence being tendered to this Senate with respect to any objections that have been received from state governments. I come from the state of Queensland. If the Queensland government raised objections, I would be the first to go out there publicly and ask the Queensland government why they were raising objections, as I'm sure the opposition would be in Queensland. We haven't received any detail with respect to how it would damage state and Commonwealth relations.

In fact, I put forward the contrary view: how can the release of key financial information with respect to one of Australia's largest social programs damage any relations? It's got to be a positive thing for the federal government, for the state government and for relationships between the federal and the state government. Then, the question arises as to why the Commonwealth government won't release this information in relation to the sustainability of the NDIS. Why? I'm coming to the same answer those in the gallery are no doubt coming to—it's because they don't like what the information says. They're concerned that if you become of what that information says, what the facts are, and what the actuarial evidence is, you're going to become concerned, and the promises that were made by those who now sit in the government benches will be proven to be wrong, that it's going to cause a political issue for them. That's why they're not releasing the data. That's the only possible explanation for why they're not releasing the data. The Senate is seeking this data not only on our own behalf but also on behalf of the Australian public and, most importantly, on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of Australians who rely upon this scheme.

Question agreed to.